Car Dosnt move for Responding Aerial Ladder

[Guest]

This Guy driving this Truck is my Hero (He knows how to make use of that horn), I hate those people that just dont move out of the way. It does look like the truck can fit but if you look close he woulda scrped the bumper a bit.

[sr71 1]

people just dont care anymore we have to scream both sirens and the horns almost every time we go on calls because people dont care or they dont give 2 sh@#ts.

even when were returning from a call and were backing into the bays people go in front and behind us its fustrating.

and the sad thing is people will probally stop when someone hits the truck or we hit someone

[Guest WolfEMT]

It's too bad that we can't hit them...

[Guest]

If you drive apparatus, you'll know that situation happens every day in every community.

[smwells 7]

slightly off from topic, but has anyone tried hearing the siren or horns in these new cars with "Quiet Steel" or other sound proofing they have??

They are designed to minimize outside noise, 200 watt siren and 350 db airhorns may not be getting through!!! and then add the 300-3000 watt sound system to the mix.. unless they see you coming, I am not taking any bets that they can hear you..

Edited August 9, 2006 by smwells

[AFS1970 504]

Quiet cars are one of the reasons we went from that old single "gum ball" rotary to lightbars and corner strobes and grille lights, ect. We had to become more visible, since we were being made less audible.

I will add that I don't believe for a moment that any of that is an excuse. Yesterday I was going to an MVA, I was riding as the Rescue Officer, There was a Police Car moving in front of us (that's a whole other issue) but it meant that oncomming traffic had to know we were comming. I had the electronic & mechanical sirens going and was using the airhorns, yet still somone comming towards me felt they were ok making a left turn into a side street, across our lane on our side of the street. Judging by their speed taking that turn, I can't believe that they didn't see or hear us.

[Guest]

If you drive apparatus, you'll know that situation happens every day in every community.

←

x eleventybillion.

What it really means is that WE need to be all that much more aware of what is going on around us when driving apparatus.

I could go in to a rant... but won't...

-cmc-

[ajsbear 11]

It's also a case of 1" people don't care" and 2 "people don't want to get stuck behind a fire truck." As someone who mostly drives these days, pulling out of the firehouse parking lot onto a road with traffic on it is impossible. I know they see us. There is a clear view of our exit ramp for over 500 ft. They just fly by, our lights are on, airhorn, sirens etc. A few weeks ago I had a motorcycle in front of me for 2 miles and Ihis rider saw and heard me but the biker ( a Harley) refused to move over for the engine.

[cas2383 22]

CT law allows for fire dept members to report such activities if they have enough time to catch a plate number, the person can then be ticked or given a warning by PD at a later time. I will try to look up the rules...

[ems-buff 81]

Is it possible that the public has become a bit desensitized to emergency vehicles because using 2 sirens, airhorns 'til the low air warning goes off, and driving aggressively makes us look like idiots? Don't tell me you don't know a department where apparatus continue driving "Code 3" even after the first units have declared it under control or 10-20 or 10-30 or whatever. Don't expect the public to take us seriously when we act like children with really big and loud toys. Drive professionally, patiently, and safely and you'll get to the alarm just fine.

[mfc2257 464]

Going to the Kings College Fire a few years back I recall an instance where I was following the at the time 2251 SB on RT100 in E-247. A motorist moved over for him. I moved into the empty oncoming traffic lane just in case. It was a good thing that I did, because the motorist didn't pay attention to anything but the chiefs vehicle and pulled directly back into the SB lane of traffic.

I'm not really sure how it all happened to come to my mind at once, but I moved far to the left because of a story that I was told from a buddy of mine in PA who was driving the wagon behind the truck on the way to a long distance mutual aid call on PA Rt30 towards Chambersburg. Same scenerio, the motorist pulled over for the truck, but back in front of the wagon and got hit. Thankfully no injuries.

Had I not heard that story, the "Q" would have been sitting in the back seat of the car that yeilded to 2251 and not E-247.

BTW my pet peeve is when an emergency unit passes, and cars don't have the decency to slow down so that those who yeilded to the unit can pull safely back into the lane of travel instead of sitting in a dangerous spot on the shoulder.

[goon16 155]

how about when 2 -5 cars in front of the person thats not moving out of the way move i hate that so much. then when your drving on the hiway or a busy 4 lane road they just pass them like nothing is going on thats my pet peeve. I think people just don't care at all, god forbid its their house were rolling to on a job. wouldn't they want you to move as fast as you can to save their house. people have no consideration for others

[Guest alsfirefighter]

A couple of things to keep in mind.

When you're operating a vehicle in emergency mode your brain is making hundreds of decisions every second. In addition to you trying to override the normal physiological reactions your body creates.

ITS NOT YOUR EMERGENCY!! Before we can do anything you have to get there and that is sometimes the hardest part. Take your time, the right of way is requested not taken, you will get there and only a few seconds longer then if they pulled over. The attempt to save seconds is costing lives. The majority of the calls we respond to doesn't even need lights and sirens to go to nor with a good lawyer fit into the "true emergency" definition that is required to under the NYS V & T law to be an "emergency vehicle." If you allow them to aggravate you, or cause you to operate your vehicle in an aggressive way to basically make them move or as I've heard "get them to see me or realize I need to get by," you are giving them the power by breaking your concentration.

MFC, I've seen your scenario many times. Whenever I have a vehicle in front of me responding I either attempt to take an alternate route, or I stay way behind them. I teach this in EVOC, as well as using a different siren and often that wailing on it isn't always the best if you are in a urban or downtown area. You need to be able to recognize if another vehicle is coming so you do not "push" traffic into their lane as well.

[Guest]

One day it will be thier house on fire, and they wont be moving out of the way.

[Guest]

Drive professionally, patiently, and safely and you'll get to the alarm just fine.

←

Well said.

We run OPTICOM's on all of our apparatus, but have rules about "pushing" vehicles thru intersections.

If we come up on a traffic light (RED) and there are vehicles in front of us and the OPTICOM does not capture it, we are to cut all sirens (electronic and mechanical) off and stop just like everyone else.

We leave the warning lights on, but do not make any "noise" until the light goes green.

Is it frustrating at times?

YES.

Am I comfortable knowing that I did not "push" someone thru a red light, and risk getting them hurt or killed just to make it to a call a few seconds sooner?

YES. Very much so.

I got asked just last week by a citizen about why do we sometimes come "racing up the road with the lights and sirens going, and then cut them off as soon as we get thru an intersection"?

It took some time to explain to her that it happening at an intersection is purely by chance, and that often we are cancelled enroute to a call and as soon as we are, we shut everything down and return to "normal" driving, just like every other vehicle on the road. Only bigger. And ugly lime green.

Keep in mind folks... perception is reality!

-cmc-

[Jason762 2]

If we come up on a traffic light (RED) and there are vehicles in front of us and the OPTICOM does not capture it, we are to cut all sirens (electronic and mechanical) off and stop just like everyone else.

We leave the warning lights on, but do not make any "noise" until the light goes green.

←

So if I understand this correctly if you are responding to a reported structure fire with people trapped and approach a negative right-of-way intersection you sit there behind God knows how many other cars and wait for the light to turn green? Now I am all for safe driving and not being an idiot behind the wheel of a 30 ton fire apparatus, but this seems a little excessive. Maybe its me but isn't there a big difference between coaxing cars to the side to let us by and coming up behind them at 75 mph thus making them pull out into an intersection. I guess you must not have bad traffic because if we were to shut off our sirens at every red light, it would probably take 20 minutes or more to get to half of our calls. Now I'm not knocking the way anyone else operates, just curious because I've never heard of responding this way.

[IzzyEng4 427]

CT law allows for fire dept members to report such activities if they have enough time to catch a plate number, the person can then be ticked or given a warning by PD at a later time.  I will try to look up the rules...

←

I beleive it is under the 14-298 statutes for CT.

[Guest]

So if I understand this correctly if you are responding to a reported structure fire with people trapped and approach a negative right-of-way intersection you sit there behind God knows how many other cars and wait for the light to turn green?  Now I am all for safe driving and not being an idiot behind the wheel of a 30 ton fire apparatus, but this seems a little excessive.  Maybe its me but isn't there a big difference between coaxing cars to the side to let us by and coming up behind them at 75 mph thus making them pull out into an intersection.  I guess you must not have bad traffic because if we were to shut off our sirens at every red light, it would probably take 20 minutes or more to get to half of our calls.  Now I'm not knocking the way anyone else operates, just curious because I've never heard of responding this way.

←

Lemme see if I can explain it better...

First... the OPTICOM system is a traffic control device management system. All of the traffic lights in the County have a receiver attached to them. All of the apparatus have transmitters mounted on them. As we approach a light, the system is supposed to pick up the signal from the apparatus and trip the light to green in the direction we are travelling and red in all other directions.

It works MOST of the time, but can be affected by angle and direction of approach(think changing lanes while coming around a corner or down a hill toward a light), weather, etc.

Traffic in this area is actually pretty heavy, all day long... especially in my district.

For safety reasons, our SOG states that upon approaching an intersection you will slow the apparatus to a speed where it can be brought to a complete stop if neccessary.

Vague? Kinda.

What it means is SLOW THE EFF DOWN when you approach an intersection. You shouldn't blow through a red light or a stop sign just because you're in a fire truck!

Even at 3AM when you are "sure" there is no one coming.

Now, picture this:

Four way intersection. Traffic lights in all directions. 3-4 lanes of traffic in each direction. 5pm. Friday. All four directions have 3-5 cars in each lane.

Where do you go? Where do you "push" the vehicles in front of you?

Through the red light? And HOPE that the drivers coming from the two sides and the opposite turn lane are paying attention? That is a mighty big chance.

The light is gonna go green in a few seconds... even if the OPTICOM did not initially pick it up, it will once you are close.

And once it does go green... let 'em have it with both air horns and both sirens.

The reason for cutting the sirens off while stopped is simple courtesy.

While it may have a small effect on response times, it is outweighed by greatly reducing the possibility if having or causing an accident while enroute to a call.

Even if it is a confirmed structure fire with victims trapped.

You are no good to them if you don't make it there because you were involved in an accident or because you were diverted to a serious accident YOU CAUSED.

Remember our responsibility it to ALL of the citizens of our district, not the just the ones who have called 911.

Does that make more sense?

-cmc-

[Guest]

Watch the video again, It was all because a Red Cab Driver was trying to make a fare instead of simply pulling up letting the apparatus pass.

Edited August 9, 2006 by NRFDTL11Buff

[Jason762 2]

Thanks for the further explanation. I am familiar with the opticom system, we have it as well, and like you said it works most of the time. For whatever reason I forgot you had stated you use the opticom in your first post. As for the rest I agree with what you said and I wasn't placing judgement on your response methods just wanted clarification. We generally try to push the cars up on the sidewalks (kind of like parting the seas for lack of a better description), rather than push them through the light. Although you can't control what any of these idiots do behind the wheel. Everybody's in a rush to go nowhere...

[Lloyd Christmas 0]

And once it does go green... let 'em have it with both air horns and both sirens.

The reason for cutting the sirens off while stopped is simple courtesy.

←

OK let me get this straight, you turn off the siren and once the light is green you turn it back on, hit the "Q" and step on the horns? How is it scaring the living sh*t out of them and having go into a code or drive right into each other? Sure I doesnt really happen, but most likely the driver will panic and not know what to do at all. So is that really the best thing to do?

[Guest]

OK let me get this straight, you turn off the siren and once the light is green you turn it back on, hit the "Q" and step on the horns?  How is it scaring the living sh*t out of them and having go into a code or drive right into each other?  Sure I doesnt really happen, but most likely the driver will panic and not know what to do at all.  So is that really the best thing to do?

←

Perhaps I could have stated that better...

I phrased it that way in a moment of levity. Remind me not to do that again.

In that situation, yes, once the light goes green, we will hit SOMETHING (electronic / mechanical / air horns) to resume requesting the right of way.

-cmc-

[X615 0]

any of you guys have the pleasure of having the impatient imbecile that feels he's more important than everyone else get in behind your machine so he can ride your a** through all the traffic? the CSP don't take kindly to this and made this particular jerk wait on the side of the highway until he was done writing up his multi-car wreck w/ injuries. we passed by several hours later going to another call & he was still waiting for the trooper to get to him. just a little street justice.

[27east 19]

What I find interesting is the other thread somewhere from this week about too many lights...seems like if the drivers in the newer cars cant hear the trucks, at least light them up good so that people can mabye see them.

[sr71 1]

What I find interesting is the other thread somewhere from this week about too many lights...seems like if the drivers in the newer cars cant hear the trucks, at least light them up good so that people can mabye see them.

←

yeah i read that 2 we cant win

[mfc2257 464]

MFC, I've seen your scenario many times.  Whenever I have a vehicle in front of me responding I either attempt to take an alternate route, or I stay way behind them.  I teach this in EVOC, as well as using a different siren and often that wailing on it isn't always the best if you are in a urban or downtown area.  You need to be able to recognize if another vehicle is coming so you do not "push" traffic into their lane as well.

←

Agreed... I used to get a ton of crap from folks who thought it was annoying to ride with me when I would run the electronic siren on high-low along with the "Q". Much of the reason why many European juristictions continue to use air powered high-low warning is the fact that the change in pitch is what gets drivers attention, not the volume. Along the same line, a Federal Q or any other mechanical siren is actually at its most effective when spun all the way up, and then allowed to growl down at least half way. Don't get me wrong, when I'm frustrated I'll pin the "Q" but its a bad habit.

As far as keeping distance from apparatus in front, I can't agree more. Unfortunatly the scenerio while responding as the 2nd due engine to Kings College presented some situations that placed 2251 and myself in E-247 nose to tail for a short period of time. The details will bore everyone, but my crew and I as well as a motorist that wasn't paying attention were lucky that a buddy of mine shared his unfortunate story with me.

[Monty 35]

What I find interesting is the other thread somewhere from this week about too many lights...seems like if the drivers in the newer cars cant hear the trucks, at least light them up good so that people can mabye see them.

←

I think the big difference with the other article, was once you get to the scene - kill the lights. I believe there is something now with NFPA that new trucks have certain light circuits that won't operate when the parking brake is on? If I recall, one of them is flashing white lights, wig wags etc. Seems to make a lot of sense.

How many times have you been sitting at a call and a truck opposite you is continually blinding you with their headlights flashing away?

[AFS1970 504]

On the subject of using different sirens.

When I joined, one of the guys who trained me in a lot of stuff was a self confessed Siren Buff. He actually taught me some good things about sirens, most of which I still use, most of which are probably very annoying. All our rigs have Electronic Sirens, Mechanical Q's and Airhorns. I was taught to use them in levels.

I was taught never to use the Mechanical going to a Medical, only to Fire calls. Airhorns were for added noise at intersections or heavy traffic. When two Sirens were used they should be on different sounds, since the Q only has one, the electronic must have a sound that doesn't mesh with the Q. I have since adapted the no Q on medicals to use the Q as another level if traffic seems heavy.

I have no idea if there was ever anything scietific behind these rules, but I bet they were passed down from senior guy to probie more than once. I can't say I use them exclusively, but they do seem to work, when approaching non yielding traffic being able to add another layer onto the audible warning moves people over a fair amount of the time.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Monty you are correct. Once the parking brake is engaged all forward facing clear lights must shut down.

BFD we talked about this a bit in EVOC. Its all about control and the situation. I also have used the comment "if one doesn't get them to yield, 2 won't either." I even had a guy in my Virginia department that would run the Q, the electronic siren and the DC pentrator we had. Needless to say we would argue over it, then again I don't know how we could hear each other after he was in the "O" seat.

One final point, is I wish they would stop producing or outlaw I believe is the magnum siren. The one where one speaker can to wail the other speaker yelp. The primary concern is safety, I have been approached by EV's using this siren and it is confusing distinguishing where the vehicle is coming from and if there is more then one. I have also observed other drivers when I have been in position to see a EV using it approaching an intersection and from what I could see it disorientates them also like their head is on a swivel.

[BIGRED1 71]

Driving in traffic

how about this kind of driving. it is to a car fire that look to be under control.

Edited August 11, 2006 by ECLEMENTE