File this under What?

[STAT213 332]

Ok, so in my time surfing the web, I bumped into Brian Duddy's web site. Great site, well put together. Its nice to see the Rockland stuff, as I used to work over there.

http://www.brianduddy.com/g/

But, I didn't put up this post to just point out his great web site, but to call attention to two of the 2008 incidents, both car fires.

http://www.brianduddy.com/g/cn021208

http://www.brianduddy.com/g/cn010508

The department responding to both of these fires is clearly shown, so I'll spare the names, but hopefully you'll go see the pics for your self, and you'll see the name on the title and the trucks. At BOTH of these incidents, these knuckleheads are clearly surrounded by smoke, not wearing SCBA facepieces. At one of them, they bothered to put packs on, and one guy had the common sense to put his face piece on, but no one else felt the need to.

At the fire in January, they didn't even bother to pack up at all, and had people on the line not wearing PPE.

I hope someone has the guts to come on here and defend these actions. I just don't get it. What part of carcinogen don't you get? I could ramble on, but I think my point has been made. Idiots.

[Guest]

i like the chief in jeans and loafers!

[irishfire2491 24]

I love the Chief Coat Only With his WHITE hat Operating A TOOL!!!!!

(Lead by Example)!!!!!!

[Guest FFNick]

I've never seen so much "tool" work at car fires!

[FDNYDCHI 38]

In the Pictures what is the point of wearing the air pack if you aren't going to mask up? Use the stuff that was issued to you its plain and simple.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Its even better when you see some that are only wearing shorts. Guess that nomex leg hair helps!

[efd184 59]

Just another bunch of morons!

[Guest WCDES636]

They should be wearing RED nomex flight suits

[firemoose827 324]

Yah, my favorite, and winner of the "Boner of the Month" award goes to the chief with limited PPE using the Halmatro tool standing in front of the bumper...way to lead by example!

I hope this only pounds it in to everyones heads to always wear full PPE and never end up the brunt of this sites membership tearing you apart!!!!

Stay Safe....®

Moose

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Soon the members of EMTBravo will be changing the practices of fire departments everywhere, for fear of our relentless criticism. "Put everything on guys, we don't want this getting back to Bravo!!!!" Hey, if it works!

[x129K 1,393]

Soon the members of EMTBravo will be changing the practices of fire departments everywhere, for fear of our relentless criticism. "Put everything on guys, we don't want this getting back to Bravo!!!!" Hey, if it works!

I heard that last week at a fire.....

[JRS2817 1]

They did it Backdraft style

[billwiegelman 1]

That "chief" is a jackass

[Future Fireman 4]

Hey guys, there's a EMTBravo New England Topic that has photos having BFD work on a car fire with NO SCBA.

Sage, that's a good idea. But what happens when you have a FD who isn't afraid of EMTBravo?

Mike

Edited February 16, 2008 by Future Fireman

[Goose 188]

Is it me or does at least one of the people on the line in the pictures of the car fire during a snow storm look like hes about 16. I would think they would have enough brains to at least make the kid (if he is actually that young) wear the SCBA...

Also, gotta love the jeans and boat shoes, my personal favorite picture is this:

http://www.brianduddy.com/p/cn010508/dsc_748558#photo_s

Glad i don't live in Nyack...

Edited February 16, 2008 by Goose

[JRS2817 1]

one of them in Boston dosen't even have his coat zipped up

[RescueKujo 130]

I would wonder if photos like that would crimp a work related cancer claim? I could hear it now...." I was a firefighter for XZY Fire Department and was exposed to fires, smoke and the particulant matter in the aftereffects of such". And the claim adjuster (or whatever you call them) "Yeah, but on this fire you have your SCBA on but not using it. By this photo I gather that was your standard. Claim disallowed!"

[STAT213 332]

Still waiting from someone to come and defend this.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Still waiting from someone to come and defend this.

I'm not going to defend this because of my own opinion on fighting car fires - FULL PPE and SCBA and until the fire is out then you can drop your packs.

What I will say is this. There are departments all over the USA that still work at car fires like this and nothing is being done, why because their SOP / SOG states they can operate this way. There is nothing that OSHA states you have to wear SCBA at car fires nor is there an NFPA recomendation that I know of for car fires. (If there is please correct me and point me to the right direction on the standards.) Should there be if their isn't and should it be adopted? Hell ya!

We can sit here, b & m about how "they" operate, make all the comments that we want but you really know what if falls down to? One - people in those departments make an effort to change or Two - someone gets hurt and OSHA or NFPA or some regulator health commission steps in and fines them big time. All I can say is if you do mutual aid to a town that operates like this, follow your SOP / SOG and protect yourself.

As for the "jeans and flip flops" common that is a simple use your head. Now pictures are up, OSHA and the state "big boys" can see this. Heck look what is happening in a little town in Litchfield County is facing after their burn drill because of pictures posted on the net.

Folks remember, what is posted anywhere can be seen by those you want tpo see it and those who you don't want to see it.

That's the end of my rant

[STAT213 332]

They should be wearing RED nomex flight suits

Oh, you're funny, 636, wicked funny!!!

Really, I'm laughing on the inside...really...

[antiquefirelt 994]

I won't specifically defend it, as we all know the "rules" but... How many of you work in the perfect FD? No one ever violates NFPA rules? As was already mentioned, many depts in this country (no not mine) fight car fires every day with no SCBA. It's probably not as dangerous as ditching your mask before overhaul is complete, but most of us do that. Hell, Boston doesn't require bunker pants yet it's hard to argue that their "a bunch of moron's". Most of us try and do the right thing most of the time, but some rules are too much for some and not enough for others, it's the way it is. Our defualt position should not be to start calling other guys names... So much for Brotherhood!

So for all you NFPA Safety Sally's: How many of you work for FD's that meet NFPA 1710 or 1720? I'm willing to bet some of you will have to look those up! Or do you pick and choose which safety measures to follow and which to bash other depts on?

[firemoose827 324]

Is it me or does at least one of the people on the line in the pictures of the car fire during a snow storm look like hes about 16. I would think they would have enough brains to at least make the kid (if he is actually that young) wear the SCBA...

Also, gotta love the jeans and boat shoes, my personal favorite picture is this:

http://www.brianduddy.com/p/cn010508/dsc_748558#photo_s

Glad i don't live in Nyack...

That picture brings up another personal favorite of mine...the Helmet Strap around the brim of the helmet. That may seem stupid to most, but while we are talking about having safety features in place and not using them, this is just as important. I cant stand seeing the strap around the brim. Its designed to keep the helmet on the head. This guy goes into a structure fire (hopefully Without the loafers) and gets stuck in a ceiling collapse, or falls...the first piece of debris knocks his helmet off the second makes him a vegetable or the next job for the coroner....stupid things like that, probably only because "Its annoying", are what keeps the LODD statistics so high.........*SIGH* (shakes head back and forth slowly)

Please stay safe and use your gear...PROPERLY.

Moose

[firemoose827 324]

I won't specifically defend it, as we all know the "rules" but... How many of you work in the perfect FD? No one ever violates NFPA rules? As was already mentioned, many depts in this country (no not mine) fight car fires every day with no SCBA. It's probably not as dangerous as ditching your mask before overhaul is complete, but most of us do that. Hell, Boston doesn't require bunker pants yet it's hard to argue that their "a bunch of moron's". Most of us try and do the right thing most of the time, but some rules are too much for some and not enough for others, it's the way it is. Our defualt position should not be to start calling other guys names... So much for Brotherhood!

So for all you NFPA Safety Sally's: How many of you work for FD's that meet NFPA 1710 or 1720? I'm willing to bet some of you will have to look those up! Or do you pick and choose which safety measures to follow and which to bash other depts on?

Your absolutely right, AND wrong brother. Its given that every dept has their rebels that absolutely refuse to follow the rules, and not everyone is perfect. But that shouldnt stop us from preaching safety to everyone to ensure that we all Start to use all of the gear provided for us.

Take me for example. Over the summer I responded to a Dumpster fire at one of our small strip malls in the village. When the Engine pulled in I was the only one fully buttoned up in gear, WITH the SCBA on, with the mask flowing air. I grabbed the nozzle and approached the area, while waiting for water I was surrounded by several officers, ALL without gear. The chief, an assistant, and two captains. The guy who rode the engine with me had no pack and he was a new member, yet he stood right by the officers and no one said anything.....to him. They all looked at me and one capt finaly said, "You packed up???"

I looked at him head to toe and said calmly " Do YOU know whats burning in here? Can you confirm theres no Haz-mat or other dangerous stuff?" He nodded slowly in agreement and 2 minutes later was standing back by the truck.

Its called complacency and its the most dangerous thing for us to start. Lets change that brother.

[antiquefirelt 994]

That picture brings up another personal favorite of mine...the Helmet Strap around the brim of the helmet. That may seem stupid to most, but while we are talking about having safety features in place and not using them, this is just as important. I cant stand seeing the strap around the brim. Its designed to keep the helmet on the head. This guy goes into a structure fire (hopefully Without the loafers) and gets stuck in a ceiling collapse, or falls...the first piece of debris knocks his helmet off the second makes him a vegetable or the next job for the coroner....stupid things like that, probably only because "Its annoying", are what keeps the LODD statistics so high.........*SIGH* (shakes head back and forth slowly)

Please stay safe and use your gear...PROPERLY.

Moose

Here's another example of bashing without thinking. Why is the helmet chin strap necessary when there is no overhead danger? How does the chinstrap keep the helmet from falling off the front when you bend down? You'll have to cinch it up real tight to keep it on if it doesn't fit perfect. If it fits perfect with no hood, is it too tight with a hood? Does it fit perfect with the ear flaps in or out?

I wear my chin strap on the front of my brim every day and use it when I mask up or am involved in an incident where there is an overhead issue. I suppose being a career EMS professional you wear your BSI on every call, full mask, eye protection, gloves, gown, etc. You know, just in case!

Moose I do agree that there is plenty of room to change and we do need to think about doing things smarted and learning from our mistakes, but I'm sick of firefighters wearing Brotherhood stickers and t-shirts while calling other firefighters stupid or morons. Let only those perfect firefighters, in perfect depts throw stones.

Edited February 16, 2008 by antiquefirelt

[Guest FFNick]

We can say whatever we'd like to say here. The reality of it is that EVERY FF in EVERY FD does something wrong or stupid or non-compliant on a fire scene, eventually. This goes for me, too.

I have no problem with people discussing these issues, but the dog piling and name calling is a bit over the top.

Edited February 16, 2008 by FFNick

[Bnechis 3,961]

There is nothing that OSHA states you have to wear SCBA at car fires nor is there an NFPA recomendation that I know of for car fires. (If there is please correct me and point me to the right direction on the standards.) Should there be if their isn't and should it be adopted? Hell ya!

OSHA - CFR 1910.146 Respiratory Protection (the same one that gave us 2in/2out). Requires that eployeers provide and employees utilize SCBA when exposed to an IDLH (Imediatly Dangerous to Life and Health). CFR 1910.120 requires any response to an unknown release of toxic chemicals must be monitored to determine if they are hazardous. And the general duty clause of OSHA requires that employeers must protect their employees from any know hazard, even if no specific standard exists and OSHA can fine based on this alone.

[Guest FFNick]

And the general duty clause of OSHA requires that employeers must protect their employees from any know hazard, even if no specific standard exists and OSHA can fine based on this alone.

I am not advocating thumbing your nose at OSHA, but no specific fine has ever been upheld under the general duty clause, atleast that I have ever seen or heard of.

1910.146 certainly does apply to the earlier statements, though.

Edited February 16, 2008 by FFNick

[Bnechis 3,961]

I am not advocating thumbing your nose at OSHA, but no specific fine has ever been upheld under the general duty clause, atleast that I have ever seen or heard of.

1910.146 certainly does apply to the earlier statements, though.

Unless the Pepridge Farm "cuppers" case was overturned, they were fined under it. I dont knowof any FD that has had an issue with the GDC. In NYS, Pesh barly fines anybody.

[firecapt32 282]

Oh well let me get my .02 in here having seen the pics once or twice now yes i had to see them a few times. There are a few things that we can comment on.First use the pics as a learning tool not a department bashing.

Safety starts with the Officers---All officers should lead by example --having said that-- there in no reason for a chief officer to be without full ppe and no reason for him to be on the line. Firefighters learn by the example that is set by their leaders and the standard set by their department.

All departments should have SOP'S SOG'S and they should be followed.

Look at the pics and learn form them--- ALL departments make mistakes at times--good deparments learn from mistakes and try never to repeat them.

Set safety standards high in your department and adheard to them.

[Monty 35]

I won't specifically defend it, as we all know the "rules" but... How many of you work in the perfect FD? No one ever violates NFPA rules? As was already mentioned, many depts in this country (no not mine) fight car fires every day with no SCBA. It's probably not as dangerous as ditching your mask before overhaul is complete, but most of us do that. Hell, Boston doesn't require bunker pants yet it's hard to argue that their "a bunch of moron's". Most of us try and do the right thing most of the time, but some rules are too much for some and not enough for others, it's the way it is. Our defualt position should not be to start calling other guys names... So much for Brotherhood!

So for all you NFPA Safety Sally's: How many of you work for FD's that meet NFPA 1710 or 1720? I'm willing to bet some of you will have to look those up! Or do you pick and choose which safety measures to follow and which to bash other depts on?

I think you have many valid points here. A lot of this is personal responsibility. Yes, it should be an example from the top, but a lot can be done by an individual, learning either by themselves or with the help of others. Just because the Chief doesn't use or enforce seat belts doesn't mean the individual can't wear them. After following the secret list, I've started wearing my belt on virtually all calls (yes, I'm not perfect - not yet anyway ), I've shared some of that info at meetings and more people are wearing them.

As has been talked about in other threads, a lot of this can fall under the risk / reward category. The pictures I found most interesting were the ones on the second set with FF's with blackened faces. That stuff does not look healthy. Maybe you wont feel anything now - but how about when you're 70? Think of the WTC and health issues arising from there. Sure that's extremely compressed but I believe all these small event add up and could produce the same effect down the road.