Bunkers or Boots? Your choice!

[x129K 1,393]

Hypothetical here, we all know the added benefits of full bunker gear, I am just curious....looking to start some chatter.....

I have always preferred bunker gear, but last year when I joined a new department, I used a long "truck coat" and rubber 3/4's for a while before my bunkers were issued...It was actually pretty nice.

So.....what say you?

[Future Fireman 4]

I'll take pants anyday! Then again, I'm only an explorer.

Mike

[nhfd241 4]

Im gunna go with bunker pants

[Ladder44 73]

i think 3/4 are only good for basement pump outs. cause bunkers you only have a 12''-16'' before your foot is filling with water.

[ex-commish 490]

I used boots for many years untill 1991 when we went to bunkers. Would never go back.

[Guest]

Ill take 3/4's any day! That and a jean jacket! Old School!

[Guest EFFP411]

I like my bunkers, even though it gets hot as hades sometimes. I have a pair of long boots, but i keep them stowed away until flood season rolls around and i put them to good use.

[ja3kfd 34]

Bunkers would not want to switch back.

[abaduck 123]

Hypothetical here, we all know the added benefits of full bunker gear, I am just curious....looking to start some chatter.....

I have always preferred bunker gear, but last year when I joined a new department, I used a long "truck coat" and rubber 3/4's for a while before my bunkers were issued...It was actually pretty nice.

So.....what say you?

I say - and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong - that I don't believe it IS 'your choice'. Weren't 3/4 boots canned by the NFPA long ago? And good ridance, having heard how many brothers got horrific burns in them. Why would anyone want to risk toasting their wedding tackle?

Mike

[TCD0415 26]

I say - and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong - that I don't believe it IS 'your choice'. Weren't 3/4 boots canned by the NFPA long ago? And good ridance, having heard how many brothers got horrific burns in them. Why would anyone want to risk toasting their wedding tackle?

Mike

Not sure about NFPA Regs but I believe all of Chicago FD uses 3/4 Boots........

My Opinion is Bunkers Hands Down. Way Back, I was the first in my old department to have bunkers (at my own cost) and I still believe they are the best way to go, unless you are doing a pump out or going fly fishing.

[Guest]

Chicago has bunker gear as of last year.

[M' Ave 1,466]

In a perfect world:

For any engineman: Pants, hood, bunkered up the whole way. You're making a semi-blind push into the seat of the fire, so the more protection the better, with seemingly little sacrifice.

For the truckie (and I have VERY little experiance in a truck): Seems like coat and boots would be the way to go. Better mobility and an ability to feel the conditions around you before they get too far gone.

Then again.....I've met a few people who would be dead if not for their full set of gear......

[Stench60 29]

3/4 and a long coat any day of the week .............. and anyone who says bunkers in the winter, never had a pair freeze up and put you on the ground.

[99subi 121]

bunkers

[STAT213 332]

Then again.....I've met a few people who would be dead if not for their full set of gear......

I'd wager that there are a number of us dead because of bunkers.

Interesting article in Fire Engineering offering the same hypothesis. Too hot, we get too deep.

They are all I've ever worn, but I sure would like something lighter and cooler.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I say - and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong - that I don't believe it IS 'your choice'. Weren't 3/4 boots canned by the NFPA long ago? And good ridance, having heard how many brothers got horrific burns in them. Why would anyone want to risk toasting their wedding tackle?

Mike

It's still your FD's choice unless your state has specifically adopted the applicable NFPA standard(s). NFPA alone has no legal authority, each state must adopt their standards for them to become "law".

To my knowledge Boston still allows the choice of bunkers, 3/4's and pants and shoes. This was after requiring bunker pants for years and then studying the increased number of heat related injuries. Chicago was the last large FD hold out to issue bunkers, and they all have them now.

[firemoose827 324]

To my knowledge Boston still allows the choice of bunkers, 3/4's and pants and shoes. This was after requiring bunker pants for years and then studying the increased number of heat related injuries. Chicago was the last large FD hold out to issue bunkers, and they all have them now.

Took the words out of my mouth. Yes, they did the study, I have talked to a respected fireman from Boston who detailed this report and sent a PDF file for me to view about the report. It stated that "Heat Related Injuries" are non-existent in their dept because they allow firefighters to wear boots instead of pants. But their "Burn Injuries" stayed the same. Pants are bulky, warm, and hinder your movement.

Boots allow more movement, are less restrictive and are cooler to wear. The coat tails protect your legs because in a fire you are SUPPOSED to be down low and crawling. This also allows you to tell if the situation is getting worse. Todays envelope is TOO protective if you ask me. It gives us a sense of safety and invincibility and pushes us to go deeper into untenable situations and before we know it the floor is collapsing, or the room is flashing.

Burns will happen regardless of the protection you wear, and the burns while in bunkers could be worse. You are sweaty underneath the bunkers, you are caught in rapid flame movement and enveloped in fire for a few seconds...you are saved from thermal burns but you are Steamed like a lobster.

My main point is that either way, the job is dangerous and you will get burned regardless of what you wear. Lately, the LODD statistics show an increase in the "Heat/stress related, cardiac" causes of fire scene deaths. I wonder if this would still be true if we still had the Choice to wear 3/4 boots OR pants? Are there any Jakes from Boston here that could elaborate more on the study, and the use of 3/4 boots?

Stay Safe everyone.

[tdc202 0]

Having used both I say Bunkers now... 3/4/ boots are good for using the snowblower as well

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Took the words out of my mouth. Yes, they did the study, I have talked to a respected fireman from Boston who detailed this report and sent a PDF file for me to view about the report. It stated that "Heat Related Injuries" are non-existent in their dept because they allow firefighters to wear boots instead of pants. But their "Burn Injuries" stayed the same. Pants are bulky, warm, and hinder your movement.

Boots allow more movement, are less restrictive and are cooler to wear. The coat tails protect your legs because in a fire you are SUPPOSED to be down low and crawling. This also allows you to tell if the situation is getting worse. Todays envelope is TOO protective if you ask me. It gives us a sense of safety and invincibility and pushes us to go deeper into untenable situations and before we know it the floor is collapsing, or the room is flashing.

Burns will happen regardless of the protection you wear, and the burns while in bunkers could be worse. You are sweaty underneath the bunkers, you are caught in rapid flame movement and enveloped in fire for a few seconds...you are saved from thermal burns but you are Steamed like a lobster.

My main point is that either way, the job is dangerous and you will get burned regardless of what you wear. Lately, the LODD statistics show an increase in the "Heat/stress related, cardiac" causes of fire scene deaths. I wonder if this would still be true if we still had the Choice to wear 3/4 boots OR pants? Are there any Jakes from Boston here that could elaborate more on the study, and the use of 3/4 boots?

Stay Safe everyone.

I've heard this "over protected" comment passed around for years, from the time bunkers became popular and nomex hoods. I've heard the heat related stress argument (I thought I had heard Boston scrubbed the cotton pants and leather work boots trial) and I have to say that usually it comes from the senior crowds.

I've worked in bunkers and hoods since day one in the fire service, so hence I feel comfortable with nothing less. As far as over extending, good training and situational awareness are things that can stop this from occurring. IMO I would bet that many of the brothers who got in trouble over extending into unfavorable conditions probably are ones that were using something other then bunkers prior and no hood. I've seen it first hand myself with my own father that I gave a hood too. Tried telling him several times "dad hold up" which he says no were fine. Room started to light up we bailed...got outside he hands me the hood and says keep this F' ing thing. Partly my fault, he never trained with it on, etc. Be aware of your surroundings...look for the indicators of flashover, there are more then just feeling heat on your a** or your exposed ears. You still feel high heat through your hood, you can still see the other indicators. Saying your gear "pushes you into untenable conditions" is like saying the gun made me kill someone. You push yourself into untenable conditions...

How many rescues may have been made or fires extinguished because instead of having to bail out sooner or not being able to get down a hallway that is marginal in temp with exposed skin, we are able to operate in "tenable" conditions.

As far as heat stress goes...I don't totally buy that either. Does it trap heat, yes. A little more then if you wear 3/4 boots or any other fangled contraption...yes. But this is where REHAB comes in gang. Instead of just looking at the gear..how about looking into what your rehab policy is or if you even have one. They wear nothing down south but bunker pants...Phoenix wears nothing but and operates in temps over 100 degrees in most days. I don't see them reporting guys dropping like flies. Why? Good ICS...Good Rehab....Heat injuries will happen. Dropping proven protective equipment may lower the numbers a bit..but at what cost? Over extending the work cycle of your personnel? There are always more sides to the discission and even more in an argument that must be looked at.

[firemoose827 324]

I've heard this "over protected" comment passed around for years, from the time bunkers became popular and nomex hoods. I've heard the heat related stress argument (I thought I had heard Boston scrubbed the cotton pants and leather work boots trial) and I have to say that usually it comes from the senior crowds.

I've worked in bunkers and hoods since day one in the fire service, so hence I feel comfortable with nothing less. As far as over extending, good training and situational awareness are things that can stop this from occurring. IMO I would bet that many of the brothers who got in trouble over extending into unfavorable conditions probably are ones that were using something other then bunkers prior and no hood. I've seen it first hand myself with my own father that I gave a hood too. Tried telling him several times "dad hold up" which he says no were fine. Room started to light up we bailed...got outside he hands me the hood and says keep this F' ing thing. Partly my fault, he never trained with it on, etc. Be aware of your surroundings...look for the indicators of flashover, there are more then just feeling heat on your a** or your exposed ears. You still feel high heat through your hood, you can still see the other indicators. Saying your gear "pushes you into untenable conditions" is like saying the gun made me kill someone. You push yourself into untenable conditions...

How many rescues may have been made or fires extinguished because instead of having to bail out sooner or not being able to get down a hallway that is marginal in temp with exposed skin, we are able to operate in "tenable" conditions.

As far as heat stress goes...I don't totally buy that either. Does it trap heat, yes. A little more then if you wear 3/4 boots or any other fangled contraption...yes. But this is where REHAB comes in gang. Instead of just looking at the gear..how about looking into what your rehab policy is or if you even have one. They wear nothing down south but bunker pants...Phoenix wears nothing but and operates in temps over 100 degrees in most days. I don't see them reporting guys dropping like flies. Why? Good ICS...Good Rehab....Heat injuries will happen. Dropping proven protective equipment may lower the numbers a bit..but at what cost? Over extending the work cycle of your personnel? There are always more sides to the discission and even more in an argument that must be looked at.

Basically the same thing I was trying to say, but you say it much better brother!! lol I was bringing up points made and highlights of the "Study" from Boston in order to encourage discussion. I failed to point out that I myself started in 3/4 hip boots and was changed over to pants in 1994. BUT....(cringe) I do not wear a hood by choice, so I can feel any drastic changes in temperature. To each his own I guess! lol Each of us have our ways of doing things we have become comfortable with.

Good post and excellent points.

[CPAGE 2]

Bunkers all the way for any type of a fire in a building or auto. 3/4 for brush fires and pump outs.

[gamewell45 258]

i think 3/4 are only good for basement pump outs. cause bunkers you only have a 12''-16'' before your foot is filling with water.

Thats why you have probies.

[RWC130 594]

FULL PPE 100%!!!

-Helmet

-Coat

-Hood

-Pants

-Boots

-Gloves

[x129K 1,393]

I know...NFPA..which is why I asked this hypothetically..

Good conversation....let's keep it up!

(also hoodless by choice...most times...but getting more and more used to putting it on..)

[moggie6 54]

You know when I first started I was all excited to have my new bunker pants. Some of the senior guys were kind of laughing at the thought of being excited at my new snow pants. Some even threw a comment or two about working in Alaska if you wanted to wear snow pants all year long. When I looked at them with that weird what are you talking about look one of them took me out on the truck and had me do the task of a firefighter with bunkers and then 3/4.

In the end it was easier to do the majority of the work with the 3/4 day boots, especially truck work. But in the end even the senior guys said that what we are burning in buildings is not what we used to burn in buildings. There was more heat ect...

I don't know what the answer is but i'd like to have a choice....and i'd take them both.