Westchester County DES Career Department- Yes, I Said It

[x635 4,066]

OK, I know I'm opening a can of worms here.

With all the talk of the County run USAR team, and thoughts about the time it would take to dispatch, assemble, respond, and deploy the team, left me reminsicing of some late night conversations at 60.

Why not hire career firefighters to staff the special units of Westchester County DES? That way, the apparatus gets out with trained personel in a timely manner. Like a full time Westchester County USAR and Hazmat Unit. Maybe make previous career firefighter history and training a requirment, as well as Paramedic certification. These firefighters could also be responsible for outreach to departments to train them to first respond and interface with them during emergencies?

These same firefighters could also be responsible for getting the various DES resources (gator, foam bank, etc) to scenes, and assist as a manpower squad at larger fire incidents, if needed-which would be.

It used to be people were "afraid" to mention this in the volunteer service during the Patrick Kelly era because they were afraid of a Countywide paid FD similar to Baltimore County FD. But if so many can band together for to push for a County USAR team........

[helicopper 1,050]

My biggest issue with the idea is the current state of the economy and County budget. With County agencies that have existing full-time mandates being forced to do more with less or simply do without, why take on the burden of a specialty department that would be idle the majority of the time. Thankfully, the need for such resources in Westchester is pretty limited and a large portion of the calls where such a response would be warranted occurs in areas covered by existing full-time resources.

You already identified the need to properly staff and compensate the staff at 60-Control. Do you think that would happen with a new fire department on the payroll?

How will the team maintain their skills? If they're strictly a specialty department, or even if they take over the Grasslands Fire Brigade, the call volume is such that they could go weeks without a real incident to operate at. To mandate cross training as a paramedic further exacerbates this problem; they'll never see the call volume to stay sharp with ALS skills so I wouldn't want them working on me or my loved ones or operating under extremely stressful conditions like a haz-mat or confined area job.

And, I'm sure others will point out, that the departments already covered by career departments with these resources will be paying twice; once for their local and once for the County. With taxes skyrocketing already, this is simply not a viable plan.

However, the consolidation or regionalization of departments may create the opportunity to accomplish many of the things you speak of - if people get past the 150 years of tradition impeding progress.

[x635 4,066]

In retrospect, the Paramedic requirment was stupid and useless, and don't know why I mentioned it. However, this could be a great place for more senior experienced firefighters to come work.

Just like Westchester County PD provides support resources (Aviation, Marine, Mobile Command Unit, Bomb, SWAT) to local municpalities, this could do the same while forming the basis for an eventual countywide department.

If the duplication of resources and spending better controlled, the funding for salaries wouldn't be an issue at all. If the team is well thought out and versatile, then there would be plenty for them to do. Heck, you have firefighters in firehouses who do less than 1,000 calls a year, no EMS unless specially requested, and haven't seen a real fire in years, if ever making over $100,000 a year without breaking a sweat. Take away mutual aid calls, dual responses, and automatic alarms and they'd really do nothing). Meanwhile, guys in Mount Vernon making less then half that and working for it. Maybe leveling the playing field and getting rid of half of the officers in some departments (does every little department need a dedicated high ranking shift commander?? Or can the resource be shared and individual houses divided among Lt's) would help even out pay and make room for more positions. It would also give newer firefighters a chance to get experience. All while SHARING resources for EVEN, STEADY coverage.

As an example of the waste, there is a town in Westchester with 3 paid fire departments IN ONE UNION, ONE police department, and ONE DPW. All three fire chiefs making over $120,000 a year, and only one of them actually is progressive, active, and is a valuable asset. Why can't there just be ONE department, with the latter competent Chief as the Chief?? The other two are past 70 years old, have been in office as Chief for over 30 years, and are drawing a ridiculous amount of money from the taxapyers wallets. If they cared about the department or the people they served, they would retire already to let the department move on and be fair to the taxpayers- I'm sure they will be well pensioned. The departments are poorly staffed and really run mish-mosh. Comparatively, the Chief in the other district works his butt off 24/7/365 to be a leader, goes to a majority of calls, and make sure his department is properly staffed, trained, and lead. That, in addition to making sure that they are progressive and cooperative with other agencies. He EARNS his salary. Why is there such a dramatic difference in the way taxpayer dollars are spent for fire protection in the same town?

As far as leadership when the time comes, Chief Raftery of Greenville has my endorsement for DES Commisioner and I'll call every connection I have when the time comes! Even if he doesn't want it, I'll send some of my new Texas FF friends to convince him..... He should be at the helm for a new dawn for DES. What he has done in Greenville should be a model for the entire County.

As far as 60 Control goes, regardless they need better pay, better staffing, and better training.

[Dudley 7]

Sell off the County PD aviation unit. That'll save some money.

(Easy, Chris. It's a joke!)

[ny10570 745]

Adding a collapse/hazmat medic to the team makes just as much sense as the team itself does.

[firemoose827 324]

I am not too familiar with your county and its operations, so I have a few questions just so I can follow along in the discussion; One, how many building collapses do the departments in your county respond to annually? If there are that many, shouldnt the money be spent improving the Codes office in that region in order to prevent that many collapses?

Two, how much wild land search calls do you get a year? Being a heavily populated area with little forest or wild land, is there a call for a team specialty in search skills or would you benefit more by calling in other outside agencies?

Just a few questions for my knowledge only so I can better follow this discussion and see what everyone is getting at. Other than that it sounds like a plan that should at least be put on the table for discussion and possible research, maybe form a committee and gather a whole bunch of data and make a presentation to the county chiefs or governments.

[gamewell45 258]

OK, I know I'm opening a can of worms here.

Why not hire career firefighters to staff the special units of Westchester County DES? That way, the apparatus gets out with trained personel in a timely manner.

Good luck selling it to the Westchester County taxpayers. There are some in here who have mentioned the county is the most taxed in the country. Most taxpayers, right or wrong, could care less about special units being formed, especially given the state of the present economy. You didn't open a can of worms here, you knocked over a bucket of rattlesnakes.

[helicopper 1,050]

Just like Westchester County PD provides support resources (Aviation, Marine, Mobile Command Unit, Bomb, SWAT) to local municpalities, this could do the same while forming the basis for an eventual countywide department.

But the County PD has a patrol division where all the officers who eventually get into the units you describe above first get their law enforcement experience. You can't have a rookie police officer graduate from the police academy and be immediately assigned to a specialized unit.

The staff firefighters in this "special" department would need substantial experience and a means of keeping it. If they're only going to see a few responses a year, they're never going to keep up with changes in technology, tactics, and skills.

Now, if you want to seriously discuss consolidation/regionalization or simply the sharing of existing resources - that's a good topic!!!!

Sell off the County PD aviation unit. That'll save some money.

(Easy, Chris. It's a joke!)

You wouldn't be the first person to say it - even in jest. The reality is that the County would realize very little profit by elminating our unit and selling off the helicopters. The old helicopter is not worth much - except to those who fly it - and the new helicopter was purchased in part with grant money so it may not even be permissible to sell it. If it did get sold, at least some of the money would have to reimburse the grant program that funded it initially.

Beyond that you've got the salaries of existing employees and some fuel/maintenance savings. Not a tremendous windfall.

[gpeifer 89]

Why not just contract the service out to Yonkers. We have all the equipment. We are trained. We are available 24hrs a day.

Seth... now that should open a can of worms.

[x635 4,066]

The staff firefighters in this "special" department would need substantial experience and a means of keeping it. If they're only going to see a few responses a year, they're never going to keep up with changes in technology, tactics, and skills.

But the same thing can be said about cops in smaller agencies around the county, firefighters in low volume departments, EMT's and Paramedics in low volume agencies, and the County's volunteer specialized teams. If these guys are paid to be there, they have more time to drill and train, and more flexibility to respond to more incidents. And, as mentioned, you could take some senior guys from New Rochelle, Yonkers, etc to pepper in some experience and leadership.

[helicopper 1,050]

Why not just contract the service out to Yonkers. We have all the equipment. We are trained. We are available 24hrs a day.

Seth... now that should open a can of worms.

It would probably be a more cost efficient solution to contract with the Special Operations Task Force rather than create a whole new department. It already covers a chunk of the geography and probably 50-60% of the County population. Population = call volume, too so it is already responding to the majority of the work.

Yes, this will probably be the road flare in the gas can!

[Guest Engine1]

I'm not really sure, so this is more of a question out of curiousity - not an attack against anythign. Why does Westchester DES have so many vehicles (cars, gators, trailers, Large pickup type trucks, two communications trucks, the ladder, etc etc. (I saw a pictre on EMT bravo some time back) etc. It seems that people like to say how theres duplications in service and equipment from town to town, so why in the world does DES need everythign they have??

Again - maybe theres a reason? I'm no too familiar with them, so this is just more of a question as to why they have all this stuff? And what if anythign is it used for?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Ladder 7 and Engine 7 are assigned to the grasslands fire brigade for fire/rescue protection of the Dana Road campus

The Field Communications unit belongs to the dispatchers at 60-Control (I believe the only one is the new one, I thought they were keeping the old one but I read/heard/saw some where, dont remember how or when, that it is gone)

[ajsbear 11]

Why not just contract the service out to Yonkers. We have all the equipment. We are trained. We are available 24hrs a day.

Seth... now that should open a can of worms.

And where would the unit then be located? In Yonkers? How would you respond to the northern parts of the county? Cortlandt, Somers?

[JFLYNN 681]

And where would the unit then be located? In Yonkers? How would you respond to the northern parts of the county? Cortlandt, Somers?

Maybe a "surprise" drill should be conducted some day...Notify Yonkers and the County "team" simultaneously, with no forewarning...have them each respond to any location in Northern Westchester...the first 'team' to arrive with adequate # of trained and equipped personnel and sufficient equipment to perform USAR work according to established National standards "wins"...

If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

[Guest]

Does anyone have any figures on how many collapses or hazmat related incidents there are a year in Yonkers? Probably less likely, but does anyone have any figures for the rest of the county as well?

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Maybe a "surprise" drill should be conducted some day...Notify Yonkers and the County "team" simultaneously, with no forewarning...have them each respond to any location in Northern Westchester...the first 'team' to arrive with adequate # of trained and equipped personnel and sufficient equipment to perform USAR work according to established National standards "wins"...

If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

Come on now Chief! You really think that there wouldn't be a forewarning? Gossip is the name of the game in this County. I will run naked through Getty Square if you can pull it off without anyone knowing about it. (Just let me have some Jamo first)

[xfirefighter484x 234]

If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

Come on now Chief! You really think that there wouldn't be a forewarning? Gossip is the name of the game in this County. I will run naked through Getty Square if you can pull it off without anyone knowing about it. (Just let me have some Jamo first)

Sounds like even more reason to make sure Yonkers wins. Who wants to see someone run naked??

[x129K 1,393]

hell - I'd run nekked through the Square for fun!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Ladder 7 and Engine 7 are assigned to the grasslands fire brigade for fire/rescue protection of the Dana Road campus

The purchase of Ladder 7 and Engine 7 were authorized by the County Board of Legislators for use at the Training Center. they were not purchased for the brigade.

[helicopper 1,050]

If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

And I promise you all that THIS will be videotaped from the helicopter! Just imagine the startled masses fleeing in horror...

[Bnechis 3,961]

And I promise you all that THIS will be videotaped from the helicopter! Just imagine the startled masses fleeing in horror...

Having worked EMS there I can safely say that depending on the time of day no one will notice and if they do, it will just be another day in Yonkers.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

And I promise you all that THIS will be videotaped from the helicopter! Just imagine the startled masses fleeing in horror...

How's the zoom on that camera? Your going to need it!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good luck selling it to the Westchester County taxpayers. There are some in here who have mentioned the county is the most taxed in the country. Most taxpayers, right or wrong, could care less about special units being formed, especially given the state of the present economy. You didn't open a can of worms here, you knocked over a bucket of rattlesnakes.

Actually if done correctly I think it could be sold to the "taxpayers." Its other that don't see the true benefit and equality in service all in the name of control, titles and their little islands that will spread the "cost" argument out there. Fact is they already pay some form of tax for fire protection and in some cases it would help lower and distribute the tax cost equally across the board as you start getting rid of these little island fire districts in all their glory with enough equipment to cover a city. Add on the employment factor that would get many talented young volunteer firefighters into the professional ranks along with cross trained abilities in EMT's and Paramedics. But that would make entirely too much sense and get all kinds of people ranting and raving. Even if it could still be a highly successful combination system. Leave the larger municipalities in place if they wish and cross train with them for mutual aid purposes. Fact is it works in just as densely populated counties with similar demographics of urban/suburban/rural areas just like Westchester.

Bottom line is we can't even operate 911 right...you really think they could find a way to do county fire/ems system?

[abaduck 123]

Actually if done correctly I think it could be sold to the "taxpayers." Its other that don't see the true benefit and equality in service all in the name of control, titles and their little islands that will spread the "cost" argument out there. Fact is they already pay some form of tax for fire protection and in some cases it would help lower and distribute the tax cost equally across the board as you start getting rid of these little island fire districts in all their glory with enough equipment to cover a city. Add on the employment factor that would get many talented young volunteer firefighters into the professional ranks along with cross trained abilities in EMT's and Paramedics. But that would make entirely too much sense and get all kinds of people ranting and raving. Even if it could still be a highly successful combination system. Leave the larger municipalities in place if they wish and cross train with them for mutual aid purposes. Fact is it works in just as densely populated counties with similar demographics of urban/suburban/rural areas just like Westchester.

Bottom line is we can't even operate 911 right...you really think they could find a way to do county fire/ems system?

Tom, it would take a war. Literally. That's how it happened in England. Pre-WW2 there were... somewhere between 1500 and 2000 local fire brigades, IIRC. With the outbreak of WW2, the fire service was put under central control, and there was a single national fire service throughout the war. Post-WW2, it was decentralized again - but to the county level, leaving something like 60 county fire brigades/departments. Since then that number has reduced to 45, as adjacent counties have merged their fire & rescue services.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Tom, it would take a war. Literally. That's how it happened in England. Pre-WW2 there were... somewhere between 1500 and 2000 local fire brigades, IIRC. With the outbreak of WW2, the fire service was put under central control, and there was a single national fire service throughout the war. Post-WW2, it was decentralized again - but to the county level, leaving something like 60 county fire brigades/departments. Since then that number has reduced to 45, as adjacent counties have merged their fire & rescue services.

Your right in some regards Mike...it would take a war. But not on the scale or type your referring too. We're talking about a county here...not a country. Although some treat their little islands like they are czars or dictators. There are model systems all over the country...but it comes down to being open minded, service minded and not selfish.

[helicopper 1,050]

Tom, it would take a war. Literally. That's how it happened in England. Pre-WW2 there were... somewhere between 1500 and 2000 local fire brigades, IIRC. With the outbreak of WW2, the fire service was put under central control, and there was a single national fire service throughout the war. Post-WW2, it was decentralized again - but to the county level, leaving something like 60 county fire brigades/departments. Since then that number has reduced to 45, as adjacent counties have merged their fire & rescue services.

Or an economically driven revolution! Methinks that given the current state of the economy, more and more people will be using words like consolidation and regionalization and unfortunately as is the case with our Fairview brothers, elimination. The right sales pitch might garner more support right now than we would have gotten just a few years ago.

Sure, there will be holdouts but even if we cut the number of departments in half we'd be way ahead of the game!

[dc2t 80]

In retrospect, the Paramedic requirment was stupid and useless, and don't know why I mentioned it. However, this could be a great place for more senior experienced firefighters to come work.

Just like Westchester County PD provides support resources (Aviation, Marine, Mobile Command Unit, Bomb, SWAT) to local municpalities, this could do the same while forming the basis for an eventual countywide department.

If the duplication of resources and spending better controlled, the funding for salaries wouldn't be an issue at all. If the team is well thought out and versatile, then there would be plenty for them to do. Heck, you have firefighters in firehouses who do less than 1,000 calls a year, no EMS unless specially requested, and haven't seen a real fire in years, if ever making over $100,000 a year without breaking a sweat. Take away mutual aid calls, dual responses, and automatic alarms and they'd really do nothing). Meanwhile, guys in Mount Vernon making less then half that and working for it. Maybe leveling the playing field and getting rid of half of the officers in some departments (does every little department need a dedicated high ranking shift commander?? Or can the resource be shared and individual houses divided among Lt's) would help even out pay and make room for more positions. It would also give newer firefighters a chance to get experience. All while SHARING resources for EVEN, STEADY coverage.

As an example of the waste, there is a town in Westchester with 3 paid fire departments IN ONE UNION, ONE police department, and ONE DPW. All three fire chiefs making over $120,000 a year, and only one of them actually is progressive, active, and is a valuable asset. Why can't there just be ONE department, with the latter competent Chief as the Chief?? The other two are past 70 years old, have been in office as Chief for over 30 years, and are drawing a ridiculous amount of money from the taxapyers wallets. If they cared about the department or the people they served, they would retire already to let the department move on and be fair to the taxpayers- I'm sure they will be well pensioned. The departments are poorly staffed and really run mish-mosh. Comparatively, the Chief in the other district works his butt off 24/7/365 to be a leader, goes to a majority of calls, and make sure his department is properly staffed, trained, and lead. That, in addition to making sure that they are progressive and cooperative with other agencies. He EARNS his salary. Why is there such a dramatic difference in the way taxpayer dollars are spent for fire protection in the same town?

As far as leadership when the time comes, Chief Raftery of Greenville has my endorsement for DES Commisioner and I'll call every connection I have when the time comes! Even if he doesn't want it, I'll send some of my new Texas FF friends to convince him..... He should be at the helm for a new dawn for DES. What he has done in Greenville should be a model for the entire County.

As far as 60 Control goes, regardless they need better pay, better staffing, and better training.

I take exception to your statements about my department. Poorly staffed sounds like you have an axe to grind. I suggest you look at runs for the three, and staffing. We can all make statements but make sure you have the right information.

[61MACKBR1 222]

The concept of a "Regionalized" County Run Fire Department has been brought up on EMTBravo.net many many times. The concept has worked well in both Baltimore County, MD and Gwinnett County, GA. There would be no reduction in Fire Fighters, but rather all departments in Westchester County would be "Paid" and men/equipment distributed accordingly, based upon need (ie: Major Cities such as Yonkers, Mount Vernon, White Plains, New Rochelle, etc. would have in place the proper amount of Staffing and Equipment based upon the Urban setting of these cities. USAR and Special Operations Equipment and manpower could be set in various locations throughout the county, with the manpower there "properly trained" to utlize the equipment (I agree with one poster who said it would be difficult to have, say Yonkers, travel up to Northern Westchester with their Spec. Operations Equipment, if needed). Rather, have the equipment available and manned by trained personnel). This would mean that some of the personnel say in Yonkers, or New Rochelle already trained might be assigned to a County Station in Northern Westcheter, rather than in Yonkers or New Rochelle. This, again, would be a plan to deploy the manpower currently in place, based upon the level of training that they have, spread out, based upon needs, throughout Westchester County. You may not have 4 Tower Ladder Companies based in Northern Westchester, but you could have personnel (say men/women who normally work on an Engine or Rescue Company, housed in a a Northern Westecheter County Station), with a Special Operations/USAR Equipment there available, for these trained people to respond to on, should the opportunity arise that it is needed.

Bottom line is that you would have the same (if not more) amount of "Indians" but less and more effective Regionalized "Chiefs".

The concept could work, but it would require the cooperation of every fire district in Westchester County as well as every Union.

Just my thoughts on this again.

[Oswegowind 17]

Maybe a "surprise" drill should be conducted some day...Notify Yonkers and the County "team" simultaneously, with no forewarning...have them each respond to any location in Northern Westchester...the first 'team' to arrive with adequate # of trained and equipped personnel and sufficient equipment to perform USAR work according to established National standards "wins"...

If Yonkers loses, I will run naked through Getty Square....

hell - I'd run nekked through the Square for fun!

Oh please, we get enough of this!!!!! In fact the other day...well forget it

Chief Flynn, I think we already know the answer...Valhalla is only 10-15 minutes away, that is not nearly enough of a head start. I am sure that the volunteer team takes more than 30 minutes to fully assembly, prior to even getting on the road and going to the incident. I am against each person responding to the scene from where-ever they are at the time and believe that a fully qualified team should be assembled first. I think we have had enough of the truck showing up and no one there to work!!!! Time to wake up and smell the coffee! Yonkers can respond at any time and then backfill the downed apparatus within 30 minutes, so let's get real. People have to wake up and realize that ego's are the enemy, not career firefighters or volunteer firefighters, not everyone can be in charge or get their own cake!