FDNY To Purchase Ferrara Ladders?

[Guest]

46 lost the whole tranny, like the whole thing! I was driving to work and did a double take when I saw it get towed by. All the spare TL's suck, they are the baker models from 95 and 96 that sent someone to jail cause they were such a poor design.

[x635 4,066]

The City Of Houston,TX uses Ferrara's engines and aerials, and they are one of the largest and busiest FD's in the country. From what I've heard, they are fairly happy with them. However, I don't think they are anything like a Seagrave, and we'll see how they are holding up in a few years....

However, let's not forget the punishing, unforgiving enviroment that FDNY's apparatus operates in. That plays a large factor in how the apparatus holds up.

The stength of a Seagrave has proven itself in NYC a few times in recent memory.....I was very impressed with the way the cab held up during the several serious MVA's involving apparatus. The aerialscope boom is the best and strongest in the industry, and FDNY has used it for decades.

People complain about every brand of apparatus. There's a lot of factors that go into getting and keeping an apparatus in service. A lot of it is beyond Seagrave's fault....it could be a demanding spec, a poorly trained fleet technician, overwhelmed fleet technicians, poor upkeep, poor PM schedule, department fleet protocols, the engine, pump, or transmission manufacturer, parts availabilty, operator errors and abuse, harsh city streets and weather conditions, etc....

You can see some of the differences in the new Aerialscope II here:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=32384

[M' Ave 1,466]

The Oldest Tower Ladders in front line are 1997's TL-138, TL-46, TL-21 are in line for new rigs if they ever arrive. The order from Seagrave keeps getting pushed back due to redesign of the Aerialscope part now called AerialscopeII. The last TL'S the FDNY got had many problems with the Bucket controls and were out of service more than in for a long time, seems like they have finally found out problem and corrected. These were the 06 year TL'S, none have been delivered since then.

17 truck had a spare for at least six months. The '06 they got was OOS with the rest of em' for a long time. Then the radiator went after that. Junk......

As for the conditions....so what if they stand up to harsh roads and weather. They run more than most and are put through the paces all the time......SO WHAT!? The PM program is excellent as are the mechanics with the emergency crew who come to fix the rigs in quarters. The shops are excellent.

There shouldn't be so many problems, especially right out of the box. Tough spec or not, if you can't meet it, don't bid the contract. NYC pays more than half a million for an engine and that's TON considering they buy over 70 rigs at once!

A brand new, custom built apparatus should function perfectly by the time any company in the field is using it. If it has to be repaired under warranty for any reason, it should happen inside of a week. There is NO reason whatsoever that any apparatus should sit idle for half a year waiting for warranty repair. It's just not acceptable.

If Ferrara or anyone else can build a rig with an aerialscope boom that meets all city spec, GREAT! I'm sure everyone's willing to work with any builder as long as it meets the specs and performs better than what's out in the field. The engines, transmissions, pumps, plumbing and other various parts will be exactly the same because that's what's spec'd. Maybe someone does a better job slapping it all together.

[Guest]

how do you insert that beating of a dead horse gif in this forum ;-)

[R1SmokeEater 359]

how do you insert that beating of a dead horse gif in this forum ;-)

Like this:

[M' Ave 1,466]

Perfect!

[IzzyEng4 427]

Or you mean this one?

[dadbo46 50]

nice theory, but not so practical. No one makes a rig for the city to demo. Everything we use is very specific, no one "just makes one".

.....and that's part of the reason why rigs are so expensive in the City. The City also capitalizes the 5 year warranty which is expensive and tends to keep away prospective vendors.

FDNY must get what works for them, though. The City is unique and the apparatus designers are keenly aware of the fleet's needs.

[16fire5 693]

17 truck had a spare for at least six months. The '06 they got was OOS with the rest of em' for a long time. Then the radiator went after that. Junk......

As for the conditions....so what if they stand up to harsh roads and weather. They run more than most and are put through the paces all the time......SO WHAT!? The PM program is excellent as are the mechanics with the emergency crew who come to fix the rigs in quarters. The shops are excellent.

There shouldn't be so many problems, especially right out of the box. Tough spec or not, if you can't meet it, don't bid the contract. NYC pays more than half a million for an engine and that's TON considering they buy over 70 rigs at once!

A brand new, custom built apparatus should function perfectly by the time any company in the field is using it. If it has to be repaired under warranty for any reason, it should happen inside of a week. There is NO reason whatsoever that any apparatus should sit idle for half a year waiting for warranty repair. It's just not acceptable.

If Ferrara or anyone else can build a rig with an aerialscope boom that meets all city spec, GREAT! I'm sure everyone's willing to work with any builder as long as it meets the specs and performs better than what's out in the field. The engines, transmissions, pumps, plumbing and other various parts will be exactly the same because that's what's spec'd. Maybe someone does a better job slapping it all together.

I'm with M on this what good is the 5 year warranty if we wait at least a month for the rig. Our 06 rear mount has been back to seagrave at least 3 times and the problems baffle me. The new engines seem even worse. One of the mechanics from the emergency crew has some sort of spead sheet going on the problems with the new pumpers (You know the engines that look like they belong upstate with 4 lenghts of suction) the one in my house has been back to seagrave twice in a year.

No offense to houston but I looked at some run numbers and from what I saw most trucks are doing less than 1000 runs a year which would probably coorespond to the slowest 10% of the FDNY companies. Winters don't help either. Suprising how many old cars in great condition you see in the south west.

[TL2L31 8]

As Izzy said the Ferrara Aerials are built by Smeal. I personally dont like the Ferrara cab, I like the Spartan like we have in Port Chester (Smeal) much better. While out at Smeal we looked at a Ferrara cab waiting to have its aerial mounted and no one seemed to like it. Maybe someone from Pleasantville can comment on them. The trucks are then shipped from Nebraska to Louisiana for final assembly at Ferrara. Smeal makes great aerials, tillers and TLs. Its too bad the are not more popular in this area.

[x635 4,066]

Smeal makes great aerials, tillers and TLs. Its too bad the are not more popular in this area.

Yonkers uses HME/Smeals exclusively for their rearmount fleet.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Word around the job says, Ferrara won a bid to build 34 rear-mount trucks.

[TL2L31 8]

I hope their local dealer can handle it.

[x635 4,066]

Can anyone confirm this yet?

If this RUMOR proves true, what chasis will they be on?

Ferrara, IMO, is no where close to being a Seagrave, although I do hear some good things about them...Houston uses them. The reason I can see FDNY going with them is the current economy and the price of a Ferrara vs. a Seagrave.....

[Guest dabx]

Can anyone confirm this yet?

If this RUMOR proves true, what chasis will they be on?

Ferrara, IMO, is no where close to being a Seagrave, although I do hear some good things about them...Houston uses them. The reason I can see FDNY going with them is the current economy and the price of a Ferrara vs. a Seagrave.....

Not to let the truth ruin a good rumor... and they did not win the bid, Seagrave lost it. Some bonehead at Seagrave failed to submit the bid in the proper format and took exceptions in handwritten notes and scratchouts.

As for the notion of the current engines costing 600k... they were 468k, not 600.

As for the current HP pumpers built by Ferrara if you want to see them, the best place to do that is usually the shops. At least the ones at 26 and 54 seem to be out of service more than in the firehouse. The biggest problem that Ferrara needs to address is their poor service, from what I understand their warrantee work is very fly by night, that is ok for suppor tunits but it is unaceptable for front line apparatus.

[x635 4,066]

Not to let the truth ruin a good rumor... and they did not win the bid, Seagrave lost it. Some bonehead at Seagrave failed to submit the bid in the proper format and took exceptions in handwritten notes and scratchouts.

So they won it because Seagrave lost it is what I am reading??

[ny10570 745]

Can anyone confirm this yet?

If this RUMOR proves true, what chasis will they be on?

Ferrara, IMO, is no where close to being a Seagrave, although I do hear some good things about them...Houston uses them. The reason I can see FDNY going with them is the current economy and the price of a Ferrara vs. a Seagrave.....

Cost is not the reason for a switch from Seagrave. Seagrave has always been the lowest bidder to meet the spec in the past. The deal breaker for most depts is the extensive waranty protection FDNY requires.

[AndyC3J 190]

The latest word I heard on the subject is that the bids were opened and read, but no purchase order had been awarded as of yet.

Have not yet heard otherwise from anyone I'd consider a RELIABLE source.

[TSull 33]

Besides the rear mounts, Ferrara may hay have also gotten the bid for the rescues. Pierce made a great rig for R-1 but I do not believe they even bid to do the rest of the rescues. R-4 got R-1's rig when R-1 got the Pierce and they have had a lot of problems keeping it in service. The Saulsbury/E-Ones have taken a beating since 2002.

[61MACKBR1 222]

I would like to see FDNY follow Yonkers FD and go with the Smeal/Spartain Rearmount Ladder Truck (Yonkers is apparantly switching Chassis' from HME to Spartan on the next arrivals of Smeal Rigs coming to the City of Yonkers Fire Department). Id bet that FDNY would love to have the Smeal/Spartain running on the front line. Much better rig that even the Seagraves (of course my opinion only)

[M' Ave 1,466]

Id bet that FDNY would love to have the Smeal/Spartain running on the front line. Much better rig that even the Seagraves (of course my opinion only)

I assure you, no one cares who makes it. Whatever a company has available or has made in the past is not relevant. The city has a very specific set of specifications, including a shorter and narrower rig than most anyone specifies. Also, incredibly specific and extended warranties are a big part of the bid.

[x635 4,066]

I would like to see FDNY follow Yonkers FD and go with the Smeal/Spartain Rearmount Ladder Truck (Yonkers is apparantly switching Chassis' from HME to Spartan on the next arrivals of Smeal Rigs coming to the City of Yonkers Fire Department). Id bet that FDNY would love to have the Smeal/Spartain running on the front line. Much better rig that even the Seagraves (of course my opinion only)

The main reason the Yonkers ladders are Smeals are because they are the only ones who can meet the grade specification with the other specs.

As far as the Spartan goes, I thought that the new Yonkers ladders were coming on HME's. I've heard HME is no longer supplying chasis to other manufacturers, they are keeping it for their "Ahrens Fox" brand, but I can't confirm that.

I assure you, no one cares who makes it. Whatever a company has available or has made in the past is not relevant.

From a fleet standpoint, having a single manufaturer makes things simple when it comes to getting to know the rigs and having a good inventory of parts.

Also, there is VERY few manufacturers that can actually meet FDNY's spec.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Seth - According to the published bid award, the Awarded Bid for the New Ladder 72 (Tentatively due January 2010) was awarded to and will be a Rearmounted Smeal (Identical Ladder Spec's as the past Smeal Ladder Trucks) HOWEVER, on this Awarded Bid, it clearly indicated that the Chassis would be a SPARTAN chasis and not the HME chassis, as Yonkers has used in the past. It is also important to note that Yonkers also awarded Smeal the contract for the New Engine 309 and Engine 313, as well as the contract for the New Squad 11 (All 3 also tentatively due in January 2010). Each of these Smeal Rigs will ALSO be mounted on SPARTAN chasis (instead of the HME's that were used on the current Spare Rigs 300, 315, 316 and 317). I could only assume that YFD and Chief Fitz changed out the Chassis Spec's when Smeal was awarded the contracts for these new rigs (Maybe the Spartan Chassis holds up better than the HME's).

Maybe Chief Fitzpatrick can let us know why YFD chose the Spartan Chassis over the HME Chassis on these new upcoming deliveries?

The main reason the Yonkers ladders are Smeals are because they are the only ones who can meet the grade specification with the other specs.

As far as the Spartan goes, I thought that the new Yonkers ladders were coming on HME's. I've heard HME is no longer supplying chasis to other manufacturers, they are keeping it for their "Ahrens Fox" brand, but I can't confirm that.

[x635 4,066]

Seth - According to the published bid award, the Awarded Bid for the New Ladder 72 (Tentatively due January 2010) was awarded to and will be a Rearmounted Smeal (Identical Ladder Spec's as the past Smeal Ladder Trucks) HOWEVER, on this Awarded Bid, it clearly indicated that the Chassis would be a SPARTAN chasis and not the HME chassis, as Yonkers has used in the past. It is also important to note that Yonkers also awarded Smeal the contract for the New Engine 309 and Engine 313, as well as the contract for the New Squad 11 (All 3 also tentatively due in January 2010). Each of these Smeal Rigs will ALSO be mounted on SPARTAN chasis (instead of the HME's that were used on the current Spare Rigs 300, 315, 316 and 317). I could only assume that YFD and Chief Fitz changed out the Chassis Spec's when Smeal was awarded the contracts for these new rigs (Maybe the Spartan Chassis holds up better than the HME's).

Maybe Chief Fitzpatrick can let us know why YFD chose the Spartan Chassis over the HME Chassis on these new upcoming deliveries?

I am quite aware of the Yonkers apparatus situation. Smeal put in the bid with Spartan chasis specified. Smeal tends to build primarily on Spartans now, which is one of the only independent fire service chasis makers out there, and as I said, I think the HME chasis will only be available to contract customers (such as Ferrara under their nameplate) and under HME's "Ahrens Fox" brand. Yonkers was quite content with American LaFrance, however they didn't bid, and Yonkers is awaiting 2 pumpers from them that are significantly delayed. I think the few people that did bid on the Yonkers contract all had Spartan in their specs.

But this discussion is about FDNY, and let's not get off track.

[x635 4,066]

Seth - According to the published bid award, the Awarded Bid for the New Ladder 72 (Tentatively due January 2010) was awarded to and will be a Rearmounted Smeal (Identical Ladder Spec's as the past Smeal Ladder Trucks) HOWEVER, on this Awarded Bid, it clearly indicated that the Chassis would be a SPARTAN chasis and not the HME chassis, as Yonkers has used in the past. It is also important to note that Yonkers also awarded Smeal the contract for the New Engine 309 and Engine 313, as well as the contract for the New Squad 11 (All 3 also tentatively due in January 2010). Each of these Smeal Rigs will ALSO be mounted on SPARTAN chasis (instead of the HME's that were used on the current Spare Rigs 300, 315, 316 and 317). I could only assume that YFD and Chief Fitz changed out the Chassis Spec's when Smeal was awarded the contracts for these new rigs (Maybe the Spartan Chassis holds up better than the HME's).

Maybe Chief Fitzpatrick can let us know why YFD chose the Spartan Chassis over the HME Chassis on these new upcoming deliveries?

I am quite aware of the Yonkers apparatus situation. Smeal put in the bid with Spartan chasis specified. Smeal tends to build primarily on Spartans now it seems. Yonkers was quite content with American LaFrance, however they didn't bid, and Yonkers is awaiting 2 pumpers from them that are significantly delayed. The specific chasis wasn't specified by Yonkers, as to give all bidders a fair advantage. I think the few people that did bid on the Yonkers contract all had Spartan in their specs.

But this discussion is about FDNY, and let's not get off track.

[M' Ave 1,466]

From a fleet standpoint, having a single manufaturer makes things simple when it comes to getting to know the rigs and having a good inventory of parts.

Yes, sorry, this isn't the point I was trying to make. Certainly, from a shops and bean counter point of view, they would like a single manufacturer. My point is; they want uniformity in brand, but what that brand is is not high on the list of concerns.

[CPAGE 2]

Well it is official now.

Fire Apparatus Industry News: New York City DCAS has *finally* issued a "Notice of Award" for 20 rear mounts to FERRARA FIRE APPARATUS.

Edited September 20, 2009 by CPAGE

[x635 4,066]

I wonder what chasis these ladders will be on?? Since Ferrara builds on Spartans, HME's, and their own line of chasis

Also is going to add a large load to the service department of the dealership- who is the dealer, BTW? Ferrara direct?

[Reliance 29]

I wonder what chasis these ladders will be on?? Since Ferrara builds on Spartans, HME's, and their own line of chasis

Also is going to add a large load to the service department of the dealership- who is the dealer, BTW? Ferrara direct?

According to the web site it could be:

Neville Apparatus & Equipment Corp

Paul Gurney

(516) 673-4402 (Business Phone)

(516) 673-4401 (Business Fax)

37 Denton Ave

New Hyde Park, NY 11040

[M' Ave 1,466]

20 isn't a lot of trucks....I wonder why it's so few. Could there really be only 20 ladders up for 2011 replacement?