Municipal Layoffs

[LT410 5]

does rank in seniority count over time on the job seniority? For Example if a Captain has 4 yrs as a Capt. and there is another Capt. who just got promoted but has more time on the job overall then the Capt. who has 4 yrs who gets demoted?

MODERATION NOTE: this discussion was split from another topic which had finished it's usefulness.

Edited December 3, 2009 by jack10562

[ny10570 745]

does rank in seniority count over time on the job seniority? For Example if a Captain has 4 yrs as a Capt. and there is another Capt. who just got promoted but has more time on the job overall then the Capt. who has 4 yrs who gets demoted?

Civil service laws dictate that time in title get priority. Rookie Capt with 20 years otj becomes an Lt before the 5 year Capt with 10 years otj.

[helicopper 1,050]

does rank in seniority count over time on the job seniority? For Example if a Captain has 4 yrs as a Capt. and there is another Capt. who just got promoted but has more time on the job overall then the Capt. who has 4 yrs who gets demoted?

The newly promoted Captain would be demoted. Time in grade is how they determine seniority for such things.

In the event of layoffs, the newest would go first.

If a department was to "downsize", they wouldn't layoff a Captain but they could demote the Captain to Lt., demote a Lt. to FF, and layoff the newest FF to reduce the numbers.

[JFLYNN 681]

The newly promoted Captain would be demoted. Time in grade is how they determine seniority for such things.

In the event of layoffs, the newest would go first.

If a department was to "downsize", they wouldn't layoff a Captain but they could demote the Captain to Lt., demote a Lt. to FF, and layoff the newest FF to reduce the numbers.

Chris, in the career Fire Service in New York State, Civil Service Law dictates that demotions which are done as a result of the elimination of a position are done by time in city service, not by time in grade. I think this applies to most Police Departments too but I'm not sure. Theoretically, a Fire Officer who has been in grade for 10 or more years would be demoted before an Officer with one day in grade if the Officer with less time in grade had more time as a municipal employee...wouldn't even have to be time on the Fire Department, it could be Police time,DPW, water department, etc. It's theoretically possible (and I think likely given the current economic conditions) that an Officer could be reduced in rank by two positions).

There are a few exceptions- NYC which, as a Class 1 City (City of over 1 Million population) has their own Civil Service Laws, and several municipalities where the unions pushed through NYS legislation which added addendums to the Civil Service Law to have demotions done by time in rank, not time in city service. Some that I am aware of are Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Nassau, Suffolk, Monroe County Sheriff's, and maybe a few others. If the membership of any union truly wished to change this law they should be able to accomplish it fairly easily because it is a no cost item and it wouldn't affect any department or municipality other than the one asking to be made an exception to the law.

[jack10562 414]

So, in the event of a layoff what happens is more senior people bump newer people, even if the newer person has more time in title, Except in the class1 cities?

[LT410 5]

that's what it sounds like to me Jack which is BS

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also veterans credit is applied = 5 years of city time

[hudson144 150]

I can only imagine who is leading the charge in Mount Vernon, amazing! It will all come out in the end.

[LT410 5]

Just out possible 5 Lieutenants, 2 captains and 2 chiefs possibly to be demoted

[TL2L31 8]

Its a sad day that this topic is even being discussed,but with these economic times,its a reality. As a union officer,I am personally in the middle of such possible layoff negotiations. In our municiple union,part time employees would be first to go followed by last hired no matter your title or pay scale. We are in a hiring freeze and have postions open on paper. We are hoping that instead of losing employees we will just not replace them as they retire until the economy rebounds. It is a little different than emergency services where we can survive with a smaller crew and not impact the publics safety. I wish everyone luck and hopefully the budgets can be balanced without any loss of employees.

[LT410 5]

Demotions that will only save the City 180,000 for the year are on the table as of today.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Chris, in the career Fire Service in New York State, Civil Service Law dictates that demotions which are done as a result of the elimination of a position are done by time in city service, not by time in grade. I think this applies to most Police Departments too but I'm not sure. Theoretically, a Fire Officer who has been in grade for 10 or more years would be demoted before an Officer with one day in grade if the Officer with less time in grade had more time as a municipal employee...wouldn't even have to be time on the Fire Department, it could be Police time,DPW, water department, etc. It's theoretically possible (and I think likely given the current economic conditions) that an Officer could be reduced in rank by two positions).

There are a few exceptions- NYC which, as a Class 1 City (City of over 1 Million population) has their own Civil Service Laws, and several municipalities where the unions pushed through NYS legislation which added addendums to the Civil Service Law to have demotions done by time in rank, not time in city service. Some that I am aware of are Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Nassau, Suffolk, Monroe County Sheriff's, and maybe a few others. If the membership of any union truly wished to change this law they should be able to accomplish it fairly easily because it is a no cost item and it wouldn't affect any department or municipality other than the one asking to be made an exception to the law.

In Nassau County it's time in the system, when we were facing layoffs last year a guy who came from corrections would have bumped someone with more time in fire communications, but had less time overall in the civil service system. Years before that when we were facing layoffs some Chief dispatch supervisors were going to be bumped back down to dispatchers, one of the guys being bumped down had the title longer then one of the newer supervisors who had been on the job longer.

Again as it always plays out the rumors and scenarios are always talked about,and many different spins come from it, wrong ones at that. But I do know that last years situation was addressed by our head boss who did tell the guys affected they would be the ones to go, and the corrections guy was not one of them.

Edited December 4, 2009 by spin_the_wheel

[JFLYNN 681]

In Nassau County it's time in the system, when we were facing layoffs last year a guy who came from corrections would have bumped someone with more time in fire communications, but had less time overall in the civil service system. Years before that when we were facing layoffs some Chief dispatch supervisors were going to be bumped back down to dispatchers, one of the guys being bumped down had the title longer then one of the newer supervisors who had been on the job longer.

Again as it always plays out the rumors and scenarios are always talked about,and many different spins come from it, wrong ones at that. But I do know that last years situation was addressed by our head boss who did tell the guys affected they would be the ones to go, and the corrections guy was not one of them.

I'm pretty sure Nassau County PD had an addendum to the law put in which makes it time in rank for them.

[LT410 5]

It should be time in rank

[jack10562 414]

It should be time in rank

So you're saying that means for example, someone with 20 years total service with 2 years in title gets laid off ahead of another with 5 years service and 3 years in title? And the union goes along with that?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Man I tell you what; the FDMV guys having to put up with this BS is a freaking disgrace. I mean what is really going on here? Is this ugly politics or what?

I'm not blowing smoke; but now with the economy in the tank, I'm really begining to see the importance of the stance Yonkers took years ago regarding mutual-aid and the abuses that occur in lower Westchester. You know maybe the City of Mount Vernon would stop screwing around with the FD if they knew they weren't going to get bailed out time after time by mutual aid companies. If the threat of unchecked fires began knocking on the door of the mayor's office, maybe he would wake up and realize he truly is playing with fire.

Since municipalities are all getting crunched right now, and the talk is of demotions, it's time to either get that combined lower Westchester FD idea out of the round file, or another city or fire district is going to have to step up and tell Mt Vernon; enough. We're done subsidizing your fire protection. Take that antiquated mutual aid document and send it to the Smithsonian where it belongs. It's time for a new one; one that holds all municipalities responsible. One that will eliminate the opportunist politicians who see mutual aid as a free pass to dog on their own FD.

If a classroom in Mt Vernon has too many kids in it, MV schools can't call Eastchester, Pelham or New Rochelle for some free teachers. The time is well past due for the same to apply to firefighters.

~FDMV brothers; stay tough, stay safe.

Edited December 4, 2009 by efdcapt115

[LT410 5]

No what I am saying is when it comes to demotions it should be time in rank people sacrifice time away from their children and families to study for the test it is hard enough to get a promotion when the 4/5 rule is in place that throws away 37 questions on a test. No one said anything about layoffs

[efdcapt115 1,511]

You're right Lieu, nobody said anything about layoffs in MV. I think it was an upstate job that was cutting FD & PD. I'll correct the post.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, in the career Fire Service in New York State, Civil Service Law dictates that demotions which are done as a result of the elimination of a position are done by time in city service, not by time in grade. I think this applies to most Police Departments too but I'm not sure. Theoretically, a Fire Officer who has been in grade for 10 or more years would be demoted before an Officer with one day in grade if the Officer with less time in grade had more time as a municipal employee...wouldn't even have to be time on the Fire Department, it could be Police time,DPW, water department, etc. It's theoretically possible (and I think likely given the current economic conditions) that an Officer could be reduced in rank by two positions).

There are a few exceptions- NYC which, as a Class 1 City (City of over 1 Million population) has their own Civil Service Laws, and several municipalities where the unions pushed through NYS legislation which added addendums to the Civil Service Law to have demotions done by time in rank, not time in city service. Some that I am aware of are Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Nassau, Suffolk, Monroe County Sheriff's, and maybe a few others. If the membership of any union truly wished to change this law they should be able to accomplish it fairly easily because it is a no cost item and it wouldn't affect any department or municipality other than the one asking to be made an exception to the law.

Thanks, Chief. I'm going to have to research whether or not the same applies to PD in NYS because I've been lead to believe that for demotions, it was time in grade but for layoffs it was time in municipal service as you said.

Interesting discussion, hopefully none of us have to find this out firsthand!

[JFLYNN 681]

So you're saying that means for example, someone with 20 years total service with 2 years in title gets laid off ahead of another with 5 years service and 3 years in title? And the union goes along with that?

Yes, the example you have stated is correct...further, how about this one?...someone with 20 years in service (all FD) and 4 years in title gets demoted two ranks and another member with 18 years of service in FD but 3 years of service in another municipal department (non-Emergency service) but only a couple of months in the same rank as the aforementioned member does not get demoted at all. And yes, the unions go along with it...

[x635 4,066]

When people get demoted, I assume they get a pay cut too? Can they do that? Also, when they get promoted again, are they entitled to retro pay?

[helicopper 1,050]

When people get demoted, I assume they get a pay cut too? Can they do that? Also, when they get promoted again, are they entitled to retro pay?

Yes, they suffer a pay cut. No, they don't get retro. Sadly they can do that.

[jack10562 414]

I still can't get over that seniority issue JFLYNN confirmed.

Where someone could be promoted to a better paying position and in doing so, lose their seniority!

I could understand losing seniority for vacation picks for the first year in a new job title/grade, but to be the first to go when cuts happen....