Response time

[firecapt32 282]

We have been chatting about a lot of things on here concerning FD's /mutual aid/ manpower ect but I am wondering this-- How does your Department figure response time?

Does it start when Mrs Calls?? when dispatch receives the call?? when the tones are sent out?? when the first APPARATUS is enroute? When the first APPARATUS is on scene?? notice I state apparatus not Chief or chiefs car.

Just wondering??

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Time call is dispatched via 911 center to the time the first radio unit signs off at scene - could be an engine, ambulance or senior officer. (reponse time).

Time onscene to time IC terminates command. (incident time)

Edited November 2, 2011 by CHIEFPHIL

[antiquefirelt 994]

We have been chatting about a lot of things on here concerning FD's /mutual aid/ manpowwer ect but I am wondering this-- How does your Department figure response time?

Does it start when Mrs Calls?? when dispatch recieves the call?? when the tones are sent out?? when the first APPARATUS is enroute? When the first APPARAUS is on scene?? notice I state apparatus not Chief or chifs car.

Just wondering??

Our times are calculated from the time 911 is answered until the time of the first dispatched unit arrives onscene. For EMS calls they also include a time at pt. to further show when assessment of the emergency has begun. While there are other ending times that make sense(water flowing, full 1st alarm arrival, etc) they are far more difficult to track with regularity and therefore we use the time when our first arriving unit arrives and begins assessing the situation be it fire/EMS/Rescue/haz-mat. Once in a while an call member or off duty member might arrive first due to proximity but they're time is not used in the calculated response time unless it's an Officer or ALS licensed EMT-I or greater for EMS runs.

In the end we feel this is a reflection of the only time period that matters, the one the patient or victim sees and comprehends. They want to know how long from the time they called until the time you arrived, as they assume everything will get better once you arrive. It does, doesn't it?

[Reliance 29]

Time call is dispatched via 911 center.

Time first radio unit signs off at scene - could be an engine, ambulance or senior officer.

Time IC terminates command.

It all depends on the situation.

1. If it is a DNR call - it is from the time dispatch gets the call from 911.

2. It is a DUI MVA it is from the time 911 gets the call.

3. Regular fires & alarms from the time first unit radios dispatch and leaves the station.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Nice debate Capt. One that's been going on for decades...what is a response time? Kind of along the lines of "who am I?." I know of several agencies across the nation that define it in completely different ways. they don't account for dispatch processing time as they feel that their clock starts when the tones hit and when an apparatus....APPARATUS...arrives on scene. Not a chief...not a senior officer....or as one comedian put it...the "fire SUV." One person in a SUV isn't going to do much...and allows far to many departments to get off the hook of never getting an apparatus out the door..or even the possibility of one. "County....Smitty...cancel the truck."

We use dispatch time...to time on arrival. For all calls...which is another debate as response time for EMS calls really isn't when the car or ambulance pulls up but when you make contact with your patient. I work in an area where it can take another several minutes to reach the patient from the street. And on top of that don't forget that there are different national standards for BLS vs ALS response times.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is very common for the 1st unit on the scene to be the only apparatus time recorded. NFPA (1710 & 1720)and Fire Service Accreditation both also require a time when the last apparatus arrives on scene. This is to determine wwhat the total manpower was and when.

Its critical for that 1st unit to be onscene quickly, but if it takes 30 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm to arrive, we have additional problems.

[Healz 30]

There is a Dept in Northern Westchester that has given out over 50 portable radios so they can call on scene. Yes somebody is on scene. No they cannot do anything but call on scene. I do believe that this is slanting the RESPONSE TIMES.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Healz

[newsbuff 286]

There is a Dept in Northern Westchester that has given out over 50 portable radios so they can call on scene. Yes somebody is on scene. No they cannot do anything but call on scene. I do believe that this is slanting the RESPONSE TIMES.

If your talking about the department which I think you are, they can't talk to 60 control on the fire channel. The radios are programmed to only have fireground abilities, along with a couple other channels.

[Healz 30]

<br />If your talking about the department which I think you are, they can't talk to 60 control on the fire channel.  The radios are programmed to only have fireground abilities, along with a couple other channels.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Negative different Dept.

[JohnnyOV 2]

There is a Dept in Northern Westchester that has given out over 50 portable radios so they can call on scene. Yes somebody is on scene. No they cannot do anything but call on scene. I do believe that this is slanting the RESPONSE TIMES.

Lemme guess.... they all sign on responding too

[SECTMB 612]

There was a Chief in a CT town years ago that must have had a radio implant. The second the County finished the dispatch, the Chief signed on as responding. Somehow I think there must have been some lag times before he was truly in his role as Chief and initiating an effective response.

No matter what criteria 'we' use to establish these times, the only one that matters is the time between the person summoning our assistance and our ability to intervene and assist. Not a first responder getting there and holding their hand telling them more help is on the way, actually being able to provide them sufficient equipment and members to deal with their situation, be it fire, ems or other.

Anything else is just creative accounting.

[antiquefirelt 994]

No matter what criteria 'we' use to establish these times, the only one that matters is the time between the person summoning our assistance and our ability to intervene and assist. Not a first responder getting there and holding their hand telling them more help is on the way, actually being able to provide them sufficient equipment and members to deal with their situation, be it fire, ems or other.

Anything else is just creative accounting.

While I understand your point, most citizens wouldn't no the difference between a good job and a poor one, they're happy to have someone arrive, clearly the apparatus itself denotes something positive should start happening. As for single unit arrival, it's the most consistent way of measuring for comparative purposes. So many FD's have vastly different responses to the same types of incidents. What's the first thing any member should do upon arrival? Size-up. Without a proper size-up initial actions can be a waste of time or just lucky. Someone must perform an assessment, determine the way to start mitigating the problem at hand. So to say a single unit or company arriving is not valuable is to overlook one of the first duties we have on arrival. I don't know about your FD, but I know if I arrive and the Lt. from the engine tells me where the fire is, where the best route of entry is and what he found on his 360, I'm pretty happy. Things can start happening if they haven't already. I do redo all that's been done, so positive action has been taken.

Would the time from 911 dialing to a "loss stop" be a better measure? Sure, but how would we define that "loss stop"? Where would this go in the NFIRs report?And just because you arrive with sufficient members and equipment doesn't mean you'll have an effective action plan. I'm sure we've all seen operations where the outcome would have been of little difference if the FD never arrived, in which case fewer lives would have been endangered. Some jobs burn themselves down to the size we can manage with the equipment and manpower we have. The key is being able to enter consistent numbers we all can use, those later times become very subjective, those times between 911 answering and a first arriving apparatus are pretty easily reproduced in any FD in the country.

[mreis95 77]

Like you said ALS an suv can't do much so what do you do about departments that the chiefs handle the majority of the calls without a piece of apparatus?

[IzzyEng4 427]

The accepted nationwide APCO (Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials) standard is from the time the 9-1-1 or standard phone call for service is answered to the time the first unit that was dispatched announces his / her arrival on scene.

[Remember585 815]

Good luck calculating response times.

Caller sees a fire in one of the county's river towns. They dial 911 on their cell phone. It goes to the TMC. The TMC sees the call as coming off of a tower in Rockland, and transfers the call to 44 Control. Now Rockland actually asks the caller where they are and sends it to 60 Control. 60 gets the call and since it's a department that they can't directly dispatch, they then give the call information (or the actual call) to that FD for dispatch. That FD then tones out the call - finally.

Now, assume that this FD is dispatched by their PD and the PD is either busy or routinely doesn't monitor the fire radio. How will they know when the FD arrives, and who is documenting their arrival time?

Like I said, good luck figuring out an actual response time.

[Guest Ltj.delaney]

I would say from the time the call is dispatched.

[FIRECHIEF63 55]

There is a Dept in Northern Westchester that has given out over 50 portable radios so they can call on scene. Yes somebody is on scene. No they cannot do anything but call on scene. I do believe that this is slanting the RESPONSE TIMES.

Although I agree with this can be slanted response times and make it look like this dept. mentioned is on scene within X amount of time quickly, it doesn't mean a piece of apparatus with capabilities to do anything is there. On the other hand, what does allow is for a quicker request for additonal resources to be summoned quicker to compensate for lack of quicker apparatus times, this again slants the reality of prompt optimum care of fire attack.

What it also does is allows for the first "Yahoo" with a radio on scene to slow down the others incoming to prevent unneeded LODD and isn't that one of the "16 Firefighter Safety Initiatives" from the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation" and our 1st and most important objective to keep this dying breed of firefighters alive?

So in closing, on one hand it saves firefighters lives, cause it prevents unecessary firefighter deaths and injury through quicker radio repoprts to slow down the "Screaming Blue Light" Parade heading to the call, but it doesn't get the important item there that will put the fire out, "A Fire Engine with a Qualified Crew"

MY VOTE - "IS TAKE AWAY THE RADIOS AND GET THE FIREFIGHTERS NEEDED IN THE SEATS, QUALIFIED TO PUT OUT THE FIRES"

[firecapt32 282]

I see we have different opinions on ths subject---all valid point. So if we cant even agree on somthing as simple as a time to start, how are we all going to merge/consolidate/regionalize?

[axman 5]

Hey FireCapt I agree with what you're saying but perhaps one centralized dispatch has one set of standards to which all adhere to. Response times are tricky when everybody sets their own standards to make the times look good and better that the next department. Also when considering response times, it should not be just the one rig with perhaps one driver, or a an officer responding, a true response time is the first fully manned rig to arrive on scene. We all need to be safe.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Like you said ALS an suv can't do much so what do you do about departments that the chiefs handle the majority of the calls without a piece of apparatus?

Increase your fire insurance coverage, move or be glad you don't live there.

[firecapt32 282]

Somtimes I just get tired of hearing " our response time is under 4 min" do they forget that it took 5-10 min to get from home to the station, get in the apparatus and get things moving??

Heres a question for all the fire house lawyers out there concerning this.. if the department"Official Response Time" is calculated from when the apparatus leaves the station ,and someone gets hurt while driving to the station after the pager went out but before the apparatus leaves is he/she covered for the accident?? or is he/she responding to the call?? can you have it both ways?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Somtimes I just get tired of hearing " our response time is under 4 min" do they forget that it took 5-10 min to get from home to the station, get in the apparatus and get things moving??

Heres a question for all the fire house lawyers out there concerning this.. if the department"Official Response Time" is calculated from when the apparatus leaves the station ,and someone gets hurt while driving to the station after the pager went out but before the apparatus leaves is he/she covered for the accident?? or is he/she responding to the call?? can you have it both ways?

Capt I believe this falls back on the AHJ...however I know of 2 incidents where 1 a person in their POV was in an accident on the way to a call...and 1 where a car was parked at a call and was struck...and where I'm at...neither were covered by the municipality...but by no fault.

[SOUSGT 357]

Good luck calculating response times.

Caller sees a fire in one of the county's river towns. They dial 911 on their cell phone. It goes to the TMC. The TMC sees the call as coming off of a tower in Rockland, and transfers the call to 44 Control. Now Rockland actually asks the caller where they are and sends it to 60 Control. 60 gets the call and since it's a department that they can't directly dispatch, they then give the call information (or the actual call) to that FD for dispatch. That FD then tones out the call - finally.

Now, assume that this FD is dispatched by their PD and the PD is either busy or routinely doesn't monitor the fire radio. How will they know when the FD arrives, and who is documenting their arrival time?

Like I said, good luck figuring out an actual response time.

Let’s muck up the situation even more. Half the people in my town don’t know were they live. Land line 911 will correctly route the calls most of the time. But when they call direct or have their alarm systems installed, many give the wrong municipality to the alarm company. There have been a number of times were the call was bounced from one or more departments until it the correct town was hashed out.

We have had a number of calls were after a prolonged delay, we arrived on the scene only to hear from the resident “What are you doing here, we don’t live in AB. The truth can be painful.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Although I agree with this can be slanted response times and make it look like this dept. mentioned is on scene within X amount of time quickly, it doesn't mean a piece of apparatus with capabilities to do anything is there. On the other hand, what does allow is for a quicker request for additonal resources to be summoned quicker to compensate for lack of quicker apparatus times, this again slants the reality of prompt optimum care of fire attack.

What it also does is allows for the first "Yahoo" with a radio on scene to slow down the others incoming to prevent unneeded LODD and isn't that one of the "16 Firefighter Safety Initiatives" from the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation" and our 1st and most important objective to keep this dying breed of firefighters alive?

So in closing, on one hand it saves firefighters lives, cause it prevents unecessary firefighter deaths and injury through quicker radio repoprts to slow down the "Screaming Blue Light" Parade heading to the call, but it doesn't get the important item there that will put the fire out, "A Fire Engine with a Qualified Crew"

MY VOTE - "IS TAKE AWAY THE RADIOS AND GET THE FIREFIGHTERS NEEDED IN THE SEATS, QUALIFIED TO PUT OUT THE FIRES"

If you need portable radios and members on scene to make driving to the scene safer there are bigger problems than how you measure response time.

I've never seen a study that said radio reports would prevent FF deaths or injuries. I've seen studies that said training reduces them so maybe instead of yahoo's (your word) with radios maybe we need more driver training and better supervision?

Somtimes I just get tired of hearing " our response time is under 4 min" do they forget that it took 5-10 min to get from home to the station, get in the apparatus and get things moving??

Heres a question for all the fire house lawyers out there concerning this.. if the department"Official Response Time" is calculated from when the apparatus leaves the station ,and someone gets hurt while driving to the station after the pager went out but before the apparatus leaves is he/she covered for the accident?? or is he/she responding to the call?? can you have it both ways?

Nobody's response time is under 4 minutes unless they have a staffed truck sitting in their stations and even then it can't be 100% of the time. I sit in my medic unit most of the time and geography makes it impossible keep response times under 4 minutes.

People gotta stop with the BS stats.

[firecapt32 282]

alright your correct but you get the idea of the post.. department figure response times differently and to their advantage. there is no overall way to determine which way is correct.

From time of call?

From time dispatch--dispatches?

From time apparatus leaves station?

To arrival of apparatus?

Arrival of Chief?

Arrival of any one with a portable?

Arrival of enough men to help midagate the problem?

Dont you think we all need one true way to calculate this once and for all??

Do you think we need one universal way to calculate a true response time.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

alright your correct but you get the idea of the post.. department figure response times differently and to their advantage. there is no overall way to determine which way is correct.

From time of call?

From time dispatch--dispatches?

From time apparatus leaves station?

To arrival of apparatus?

Arrival of Chief?

Arrival of any one with a portable?

Arrival of enough men to help midagate the problem?

Dont you think we all need one true way to calculate this once and for all??

Cap,

Doesn't the FDNY MDT System allow for the accurate following of all information? That would be a great question that JBE could expand on. Calling JBE....over...

[antiquefirelt 994]

It appears that NFIRs attempts to measure the response time as the time from a 911 call being answered to the time the first unit arrives. They note that depending on how FD's interpret "Alarm time" the numbers are skewed, as some only note the time they were alerted, not 911. And the arrival of a first unit does not speak to the ability that unit has to begin mitigating anything. Here's a link to a report from 2006: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/tfrs/v5i7.pdf

I personally believe you need to start at the time 911 is answered, given that dispatch is part of our system. Whether we can control it or not, how the call is received by us from the original caller is part of the emergency response system. I routinely review our monthly stats and calls that exceed certain time frames for areas of our first due get a deeper review for cause. Sometimes is a delay in dispatch, other times no address visible and sometime just a sluggish response. We've not found any particular reason standing out more than others. Our personnel are required to put a reason in the narrative of their reports if there's a delay: bad address, not numbers visible, staged for PD, etc.

On the other end of the spectrum, while most of us would agree that an SUV is not much good at extinguishing fires, or for that matter an engine with only 1 or 2 on board, the first arriving unit that was assigned is where our time stops. In my view, the size-up is the first priority of any operation and if that begins with a first arriving officer or trained firefighter, than we are beginning the process of making things better. While the fire may grow, at least someone is getting a handle on what's burning, where, hazards, victims, obstacles, etc, etc.

[4truck48 25]

The only time that matters is from dispatch time to " ONE LINE STRETCHED AND IN OPERATION' everything else cam be twisted and turned however it fits your needs