FAS Team Thought

[Remember585 815]

I've been giving something a lot of thought lately, and decided to post it here for discussion.

There's quite a few departments in Westchester running FAS Teams (or RI Teams). Rarely, unless I am wrong, do any of them train with each other or the department's they routinely run with.

I'm thinking that maybe it's time for those of us running these teams to perhaps get together and start working together towards a common practice. I think we all pretty much use the same equipment, require the same training and have the same mindsets on how we should do our jobs.

Firefighter safety is a very serious topic to me. I've been thinking of ways to increase our safety in my own department, and started to think about ways to help all of us get on the same page - or close to it.

Please note this isn't a debate about how they should run, etc. I just want to open up the discussion of other departments in the WC interested in starting to work together towards - dare I say it - a more standard approach to all of this FAST stuff we do. It all starts with every firefighter recognizing and knowing what to do to avoid / get out of trouble, and maybe as a united voice (all of us running FAST's) we can start helping our own avoid ever needing us.

Just food for thought - I'm more than willing to work on this and to use our station to play host for meetings / training.

Thanks for reading.

[Spartan052 43]

your right ,and its not a terrible idea this should be done to better handle the situations that we call FAS Teams for

[firemoose827 324]

Our county team trains with departments regularly, and is required for all Firefighter I courses when they go to the training center. They are also required to be present for all live fire excercises at the training center.

I will be planning a drill for them to attend with our department soon I hope, because not too many of our people are familiar with their techniques and what is expected of us as a department when they actually go to work on a scene.

[Spartan052 43]

Our county team trains with departments regularly, and is required for all Firefighter I courses when they go to the training center. They are also required to be present for all live fire excercises at the training center.

I will be planning a drill for them to attend with our department soon I hope, because not too many of our people are familiar with their techniques and what is expected of us as a department when they actually go to work on a scene.

yes but in westchester they dont train together as much as they should

[bad box 371]

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

[dwcfireman 656]

Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond).

I've had the unfortunate experiences of being involved in a few maydays, both on a FAST and as a company officer with a FF down. It's not fun, and every time it happened within thefirst 10 minutes of being on scene. You hit the nail on the head with the statement:

It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue.

There's quite a few departments in Westchester running FAS Teams (or RI Teams). Rarely, unless I am wrong, do any of them train with each other or the department's they routinely run with.

The departments that I have belonged to in Weschester routinely rely on one of these FASTs, and it's a shame that we've never trained together with that department's personnel in a FAST scenario. It would be awesome training as they are the ones who have been through the class, have been to numerous incidents as a FAST, and progressively train for these mayday scenarios.

Our county team trains with departments regularly, and is required for all Firefighter I courses when they go to the training center. They are also required to be present for all live fire excercises at the training center.

I will be planning a drill for them to attend with our department soon I hope, because not too many of our people are familiar with their techniques and what is expected of us as a department when they actually go to work on a scene.

Unfortunately, counties throughout New York State do not offer the same specialized teams. What I find most unfortunate about it is in lack of uniformity between the counties on a number of things (like specialized teams, radio jargon, apparatus numbering, etc.). The only thing that seems to be uniform is that most counties provide at least a HAZMAT team. For Westchester, having a central, county level FAST doesn't really work, because of area coverage, the number of districts, and the call volume. Where I'm from, in Monroe County, it was up to the individual batallions if they wanted to have a specialized team (other than HAZMAT). My battallion chose ice/water rescue. But if you needed a FAST, you just picked a random neighboring department to do the job.

[RWC130 594]

Every Interior Firefighter should complete FAST training. Even if you are not on the team at least

learn and practice the skills.

When you go to the FTC for a burn how many departments practice the rescue of a Firefighter down?

As mentioned what happens when you hear that MAY-DAY! and the FAST from the other town is

not even out the door yet?

All departments should cross train. It can only make our skills better and give us a chance to work together.

GREAT TOPIC REMEMBER 585!

[firemoose827 324]

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

Everyone is required to take "Firefighter Safety and Survival" in my area to be an interior. When they go through the FF I course they get a look at our FAST first hand and see what they do to rescue someone. There is also regular FAST courses as well. I agree about that, everyone should have the training so you are all on the same page. Routine trainings on Mayday calls and what to do when one is called should also be done. I ask people all the time during drills what would happen if...and 7 times out of ten they dont mention calling a Mayday, they just try to fix the problem. We are working on that issue through training with the FAST at our new training facility.

[hawkbase 21]

Absolutely a great idea! something that can easily be incorporated into any battalion drill, or even a lrger drill for a single dept. just include your nearest FAST.

[BFD1054 1,552]

John,

First off, great topic Chief!

Let me start by saying how well run and trained your FAST is. I always felt comfortable and confident having your team at an incident. Hell, I remember the Bannon Ave job. I was searching the top floor when I saw you through the window lol. You were throwing ladders and clearing windows as means of egress. You guys were always pro active and professional.

I took FF Safety & Survival because I was selfish. What I mean is that we are our own first line of defense. Knowing the basics and knowing how to save your own a$$ may mean going home safe after the job.

In Buchanan, we did not operate a FAST. But you know what, I took the FAST course because I always strived to be a better FF. It was important to me to know how to help a brother or sister FF out of a bad situation.

I whole heartedly agree that EVERY FF should be FAST trained. It definitely should not be a specialized skill. However, it should also not be the 18 y/o fresh out of FF1 who's coming to a downed members rescue. That is just my personal opinion.

I attended the Joey DiBernardo memorial seminar on Long Island this weekend. First, it was an outstanding seminar with some of the most respected men in the business as speakers. I can not wait to attend next year.

John Salka (who most of you should know of) touched on his "get out alive" program. He spoke of the importance of FAST/RIT, but reiterated the importance of being a well trained FF, capable of getting yourself out of trouble.

My current FD, Vails Gate, does have our own FAST. Last year, we hosted a FAST training exercise at our training building. All FAS teams in our Battalion (4) were in attendance. We went over packaging skills, FF through the floor removal, the Denver Drill, moving members down a ladder and moving downed members up and down stairs. All members were split into different teams being made up of members of the different FDs.

It was a great day of training and was nice to work with the other teams.

So Chief, I applaud you for always having the mindset to better your members and their training skills. I think it would be a great idea for you to get together with the other FAST's that you work with (or don't) and train with them. Perhaps reach out to the other teams, set a date and book the FTC. It's always nice to hone in your skills, but also nice to see how other teams are operating and how they do things.

Best of luck to you.

[spike2231 38]

this is an interesting subject because as if today in putnam cty there is only the put valley fast team certified. lake carmel and brewster gave up their fast teams they citied training as being the biggest time consumer now carmel fire dept has ok their personnel to begin trainning for a fast team at put valley hq soon chief lipton has said they can train but wants to make sure of the commitment of the memebers before he will sign off on the team and put it in service he also citied trainning as being very demanding they start as soon as the class in filled we will seee what happens

[BFD1054 1,552]

this is an interesting subject because as if today in putnam cty there is only the put valley fast team certified. lake carmel and brewster gave up their fast teams they citied training as being the biggest time consumer now carmel fire dept has ok their personnel to begin trainning for a fast team at put valley hq soon chief lipton has said they can train but wants to make sure of the commitment of the memebers before he will sign off on the team and put it in service he also citied trainning as being very demanding they start as soon as the class in filled we will seee what happens

There is only ONE dedicated FAST in the entire County of Putnam? Perfect example of why FAST should not necessarily be a specialized unit.

[grumpyff 1,159]

There is only ONE dedicated FAST in the entire County of Putnam? Perfect example of why FAST should not necessarily be a specialized unit.

Sadly, yes there is one team. Others fell by the wayside. East Fishkill has been called numerous times as well.

[wraftery 1,275]

I've been giving something a lot of thought lately, and decided to post it here for discussion.

There's quite a few departments in Westchester running FAS Teams (or RI Teams). Rarely, unless I am wrong, do any of them train with each other or the department's they routinely run with.

I'm thinking that maybe it's time for those of us running these teams to perhaps get together and start working together towards a common practice. I think we all pretty much use the same equipment, require the same training and have the same mindsets on how we should do our jobs.

Firefighter safety is a very serious topic to me. I've been thinking of ways to increase our safety in my own department, and started to think about ways to help all of us get on the same page - or close to it.

Please note this isn't a debate about how they should run, etc. I just want to open up the discussion of other departments in the WC interested in starting to work together towards - dare I say it - a more standard approach to all of this FAST stuff we do. It all starts with every firefighter recognizing and knowing what to do to avoid / get out of trouble, and maybe as a united voice (all of us running FAST's) we can start helping our own avoid ever needing us.

Just food for thought - I'm more than willing to work on this and to use our station to play host for meetings / training.

Thanks for reading.

Yes, John, practice with your Mutual Aid FAST team. In fact practice everything you do, including a mayday prior to the arrival of that FAST. Review the OSHA requirement that a FAST team must be in place when two persons are operating in an ILDH.

Also come up with a written policy or procedure for establishing FAST prior to the arrival of a FAST company.

If you want to prove a point to the naysayers try this. At one of your live fire drills, secretly tell one of your company officers that at 1 minute into the evolution to call a SIMULATED Mayday for his company saying the building has suffered a partial collapse and his company is trapped and injured under the collapse. Surprise the IC with this twist in the scenario and see how it is handled.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

There is only ONE dedicated FAST in the entire County of Putnam? Perfect example of why FAST should not necessarily be a specialized unit.

Absolutely, wholeheartedly agree. EVERYONE (yes, everyone) should be trained in the basics of RIT/FAST to the point where they are capable of doing the job. If a department wants to select a group of Firefighters to undergo more advanced training and make them a specialized unit, then great, but I don't think that RIT should be considered a special ops team like HAZMAT or Tech Rescue.

I have to ask, if Putnam Valley is the only FAST in P.C., is every department in the county just sticking with the OSHA 2-out until FAST arrives?

[bad box 371]

I have to ask, if Putnam Valley is the only FAST in P.C., is every department in the county just sticking with the OSHA 2-out until FAST arrives?

Even if "2 in, 2 out" is what departments are following, it's imperative that the members who are assigned as the "2 out" are qualified, knowledgeable, skilled in rescuing downed firefighters. As I stated earlier, many MAYDAYS! occur very early in the operation (well before a special FAST / RIT will arrive). ALL firefighters must be capable of taking the necessary action IMMEDIATELY when firefighters collapse or become trapped and require rescue. The old saying, "Fail to plan, plan to fail" comes to mind. Unfortunately, if we fail in these situations our Brothers / Sisters make the ultimate sacrifice.

[bad box 371]

this is an interesting subject because as if today in putnam cty there is only the put valley fast team certified. lake carmel and brewster gave up their fast teams they citied training as being the biggest time consumer now carmel fire dept has ok their personnel to begin trainning for a fast team at put valley hq soon chief lipton has said they can train but wants to make sure of the commitment of the memebers before he will sign off on the team and put it in service he also citied trainning as being very demanding they start as soon as the class in filled we will seee what happens

Wow, this is truly a sad state of affairs. FAST training (just like pump operations, engine operations, ladder company operations) is firefighter training. It's a necessity for all members of the department (even if the department does not want to be considered to be a county wide special team). If departments can't find the time to maintain a high level of training in all aspects of firefighting, then it's time for the chief officers and commissioners to take a hard look at the future of the department. If we can't keep up with all necessary training on a regular basis, then we really can't justify being in this 'business'.

[ex-commish 490]

Wow, this is truly a sad state of affairs. FAST training (just like pump operations, engine operations, ladder company operations) is firefighter training. It's a necessity for all members of the department (even if the department does not want to be considered to be a county wide special team). If departments can't find the time to maintain a high level of training in all aspects of firefighting, then it's time for the chief officers and commissioners to take a hard look at the future of the department. If we can't keep up with all necessary training on a regular basis, then we really can't justify being in this 'business'.

Nuff said!!!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Even if "2 in, 2 out" is what departments are following, it's imperative that the members who are assigned as the "2 out" are qualified, knowledgeable, skilled in rescuing downed firefighters. As I stated earlier, many MAYDAYS! occur very early in the operation (well before a special FAST / RIT will arrive). ALL firefighters must be capable of taking the necessary action IMMEDIATELY when firefighters collapse or become trapped and require rescue. The old saying, "Fail to plan, plan to fail" comes to mind. Unfortunately, if we fail in these situations our Brothers / Sisters make the ultimate sacrifice.

I wholeheartedly agree, I'm just asking if that's what's being done in P.C. currently.

[Ging599 13]

The FAST situation in Putnam is less than ideal. If not calling Putnam Valley, ICs are just calling neighboring departments for an Engine or Ladder and assigning them as FAST. This doesnt necessarily give you a crew that has taken any FAST training. This, among other reasons, is why I am trying to form a FAST team in Carmel. It seems to have sparked some interest as I have a number of members signed up for next weeks FAST class. If nothing else comes out of this, at least I have a half a dozen guys who have taken the class who hadn't previously. Ideally, we end up with enough guys trained and educated that we can create a formal FAST team. Unfortunately I have met some resistance. If I hear one more time from someone that they don't want to create a FAST team because all you do is sit outside a building, I might strangle them. Instead I try to educate them on the positives of expanding training and ideas but sometimes this just doesn't get through.

[38ff 250]

If they dont want to sit outside a building, I take it that they dont expect someone to do it for them either..... Hopefully nothing happens while they are inside.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Unfortunately I have met some resistance. If I hear one more time from someone that they don't want to create a FAST team because all you do is sit outside a building, I might strangle them.

So if they are not called mutual aid to the scene as FAST and end up "sitting outside" They are left sitting back in their fire station in their district or are they just buffing the call to take pictures and "standing outside" anyway?

[Chief1710 14]

I created the Lake Carmel Fasteam and it took a few years to get it where i wanted it to be. The team was active and trained together once a month with our entire department so that even the members that didnt want to respond with the team also got the training. The training not only benifited the departments that requested us but made our department better overall. As the IC at our calls I saw our members coming off our appartus better prepared. After I was Chief the team hung on for a few years but slowly the members lost interest and the current Chief at the time couldn't be bothered to take an interest in the team and dissolved it. I dont want to get into our departments politics but I dont see the members coming off the appartus the way that they use to.

One issue that did occur that Carmel needs to watch out for is that we werent being requested enough and in a timely fashion. In Putnam Co just one department had us on automatic mutual aid and that was after the fire was confirmed(someone actually on scene) so that would be a good 5-8 minutes after the fire was dispatched. By the time we got dispatched and drove over there we had to park the rig out of the way and hike with all our gear to the scene. usually walking up to a fire that has been knocked down and the first crew already taking a blow at rehab. There needs to be a better system of dispatching the Fasteam and in a more timely fashion.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

A. If all your RIT/FAST is doing is "sitting outside" leaning on pike poles you're missing out on a lot of stuff that needs doing.

B. Wouldn't the logical solution to the problem be to train everyone in the basics of RIT/FAST??? If I was in the building and needed help ASAP I'd take the crew of guys basically trained in RIT who are on the front lawn over the RIT experts still en route from three towns away.

Edited July 4, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Ging599 13]

Believe me, I have made all of the points you gents just made. Some members have an attitude towards things that I do not understand. I am still pushing forward with the intention of forming the FAST and hope it pans out. I am further hoping that some of the negative members who see us progressing and training with FAST like what they see and become interested and come onboard.

[Bnechis 3,961]

A. If all your RIT/FAST is doing is "sitting outside" leaning on pike poles you're missing out on a lot of stuff that needs doing.

Great Point!

B. Wouldn't the logical solution to the problem be to train everyone in the basics of RIT/FAST??? If I was in the building and needed help ASAP I'd take the crew of guys basically trained in RIT who are on the front lawn over the RIT experts still en route from three towns away.

B. But would this not make VFD's the same as career depts?

[wraftery 1,275]

A. If all your RIT/FAST is doing is "sitting outside" leaning on pike poles you're missing out on a lot of stuff that needs doing.

B. Wouldn't the logical solution to the problem be to train everyone in the basics of RIT/FAST??? If I was in the building and needed help ASAP I'd take the crew of guys basically trained in RIT who are on the front lawn over the RIT experts still en route from three towns away.

There's another thread that is running at the same time as this one. It's about booster lines. If you are leaning on your pike poles, why not pick up a booster line and wet down debris? After all you are both useless.

Of course, your IC will have to get another RIT only because OSHA requires it, and at no time can he have people in an ILDH without a RIT outside.

Also, do the guys that go inside (after all those guys are what this FAST stuff is all about) know that there is nobody there to help them if they get in trouble?

Sample radio transmission:

Mayday, mayday...I fell through the floor. I think I'm in the basement.

10-4 I'll see if there is anyone around who can give you a hand

Mayday, Mayday...Come get me. I can't get out from under the rubble

IC to Mayday...Can you hang on another 20 minutes? I've got a real good team coming, much better than the guys on-scene

If this little scenario looks like anything that could conceivably happen in your department, don't you think you would have to be dumb to go inside?

[antiquefirelt 994]

One line comes to mind here: Some appear to be letting perfect be the enemy of good. Meaning,striving to make the perfect RIT and meet perceived expectations we've decided that it's too much and therefore, nothing is done.

I've not really understood the special certification for RIT in some places. It's part of our basic firefighter 1&2 programs now (has been since 1999). Isn't anyone wearing an SCBA (legitimately) whose available better than nothing? If you can hold two SCBA firefighters outside with SCBA on, you have the beginning of your RIT. The only things we add to this equation is the specific set of tools designated for the RIT and more firefighters and an officer. Short of RIT packs, the rest of the tools are all things that are used routinely by properly trained firefighters.

Many FD's struggle and want to keep their best guys for RIT to ensure that if the brown stuff hits the spinny thing their better prepared, but doing so increases the chance of the same scenario by putting lesser experienced people inside in the first place. If you can rescue a civilian you have the basics of firefighter rescue. Higher risks due to circumstances? Probably, but all risks that you should be prepared for (trained) before you enter your first building fire.

Also if your RIT isn't doing something proactive you're either resource heavy or wasting the use of the crew. Our RIT assignments include many tasks that reduce the risks to interior firefighters. As long as they remain available to act, are not heavily taxed and do not breath air, they carry out tasks. Some tasks: laddering upper floors, removing locked doors (no bars on windows or shutter gates up here), monitoring conditions, assessing progress, and generally ensuring familiarity with the building.

Edited July 4, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) I've not really understood the special certification for RIT in some places. It's part of our basic firefighter 1&2 programs now (has been since 1999).

2) Isn't anyone wearing an SCBA (legitimately) whose available better than nothing?

3) If you can hold two SCBA firefighters outside with SCBA on, you have the beginning of your RIT. The only things we add to this equation is the specific set of tools designated for the RIT and more firefighters and an officer. Short of RIT packs, the rest of the tools are all things that are used routinely by properly trained firefighters.

If you can rescue a civilian you have the basics of firefighter rescue.

.

1) NYS does not have a special certification, but their are depts here that have made this up as an excuse for not providing a basic service that is legally required if you send members into an IDLH atmosphere. FAST (RIT) training has been part of the basic program for career firefighters in NYS since the 1990's, it can be included with FF1 for volunteers, but not always available, but that is because in NYS the volunteer fire service has not demanded it. Note: this is not ment as a VFD vs Career thing, but if every rig arriving at a fire is not trained and prepared to rescue a down firefighter, its time to replace them. It is up to each member to be able to save a brother.

2) One would liketo think so.

3) I agree, but it has been very clear that most depts can not or will not do this. It is one of the most basic skills every FD needs. If the chiefs do not see the need, then its time for new chiefs. If the ff's do not see the need they need better leadership, better training or they need to be replaced.

4) For the moderators, the ability to split quotes feature is not working

[jd783 64]

http://firechief.com/rapid-intervention/too-little-too-late

I dont comment much on this site but please read the above article, it is eye opening. I feel a RIT team should be in place immediately, now I know this is not always possible but after 15-20 from inception of the fire ( not the call) is a building worth a firefighters life? I sure by searching the web you can read the whole study from Phoenix Have a happy Safe 4th