Fires In Westchester That Required Large Amounts Of Water

[x635 4,066]

Does anyone have any recollection of incidents in Westchester that required massive amounts of water, past the capacity of the hydrant systems and the time a tanker shuttle would take to long to provide?

I seem to remember the Fox and Sutherland fire in Mount Kisco and having to dam up the Saw Mill River to draft from.

Is this a situation that could happen here, and how would we be able to handle it? I know Bedford and Pound Ridge have source pumpers with a lot of output and five inch, but would that be a solution to supply a fire of this size?

[FF1 172]

South Salem had that fire this past January. The house was on a peninsula in a non - hydrant area. The creek around the home was not dredged and was unable to draft from. The house essentially burned to the ground after the water was exhausted from engines and tankers, because the closest water source was very far from the fire

[kinkchaser 352]

I recall a couple in Yonkers that were huge and water was a problem -Oak Street where about 14 buildings went and of course the carpet shop fire off Lake Avenue with all it's exposure problems

Now in New Rochelle NRHS fire in 68 had the advantage of Mutual Aid units drafting from the lakes out front. that was one of the largest fires in the USA that year. Also in New Ro the Crabtree explosion that killed folks, injured scores and destroyed several large commercial buildings.

We often take water for granted,at the World Trade Center who would think water would ever be a problem, but it was when the towers fell and broke the water mains under the street and uncontrolled fires became a real problem, fireboats came in real handy both active and retired vessels.

With Homeland Security funding Jersey bought three huge pumping units with very large diameter hose,way bigger than 5in., these units were called Neptune Systems and could produce huge amounts of water for long distances, wonder if they were called in.

[kinkchaser 352]

The Neptune system is not a Fire truck but a large POD with a huge pump inside it can pump more than 5,000 GPM thru 12 in. hose for a distance of a mile. Under a perfect scenario it could have hooked up at the Bay and pumped across the width of Seaside to the Boardwalk.

But perhaps the Jersey Boys can fill us in with better information on this system which was not only considered for firefighting but moving water to area without water for what ever reason.

[38ff 250]

A great article on the Neptune system.

http://fw.to/wKz3z3F

Union County NJ Drills Using Kidde Neptune System
From September 21-24, personnel from the Union County Neptune Task Force met in Port Newark, New Jersey, for an annual drill involving deploying the task force’s Neptune system and Iron Man nozzle.

[Bnechis 3,961]

South Salem had that fire this past January. The house was on a peninsula in a non - hydrant area. The creek around the home was not dredged and was unable to draft from. The house essentially burned to the ground after the water was exhausted from engines and tankers, because the closest water source was very far from the fire

I am sorry but the house burned to the ground because the fire dept could not utilize the water that was within 100' from the home. It had nothing to do with lack of dredging. It had everything to do with lack of preplanning and passing local fire codes, particularly since the previous home at that location also burned to the ground.

If dry hydrants had been installled in that lake or the lake across the road, it would have been saved. If depts had standardized fittings and knew how to relay it might have been saved, if depts had the ability to get the water thru other means (drafting is not the only way to get it from a static source).

BTW it was not a creek, they had 2 monster lakes one on either side of the road.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know Bedford and Pound Ridge have source pumpers with a lot of output and five inch, but would that be a solution to supply a fire of this size?

5' LDH will give you about 1,500 gpm and you are limmited on the distance.

Every community in Westchester has a number of buildings that the ISO needed fire flow is at least 3,500gpm and many need well over 5,000gpm. ISO will even give you a list of the flow at every property that is insured. Great for preplanning.

20 years ago In Europe I watched an FD using a hydraulic pump move 2,000gpm 1 mile after lifting it over 135' up to a bridge. Larry Davis tried to convince depts in the US it was a great system and was a 3rd the price of a single engine. Basicly no one was interested, until a few years ago when FDNY bought 5 of them.

[FF1 172]

I am sorry but the house burned to the ground because the fire dept could not utilize the water that was within 100' from the home. It had nothing to do with lack of dredging. It had everything to do with lack of preplanning and passing local fire codes, particularly since the previous home at that location also burned to the ground.

If dry hydrants had been installled in that lake or the lake across the road, it would have been saved. If depts had standardized fittings and knew how to relay it might have been saved, if depts had the ability to get the water thru other means (drafting is not the only way to get it from a static source).

BTW it was not a creek, they had 2 monster lakes one on either side of the road.

You are probably correct, Capt.

I was just mentioning an instance that I have heard of second hand. I do not live or voli up there, so this was only what I heard.

Just making an example.

[Remember585 815]

I can think of three incidents I've responded to where the municipal water system couldn't keep up - all in Peekskill. Hampton Oaks Apartments (1999?), Main Street shopping center (2005?) & more recently the Lakewood fire (2013).

[mfc2257 464]

Kings College fire in Briarcliff.

[meat441 43]

I don't understand why rural departments to this day don't purchase Turbo Drafts?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't understand why rural departments to this day don't purchase Turbo Drafts?

You mean its important to have water to fight a fire?

Great tool, though its over priced.

There are a lot of other items that are needed that depts without municipal water supply (or poor water supply) that are needed, but most depts either do not understand it, or want to understand it.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Recycle plant downtown Port Chester 1990 Draft from Byram river, 1994 again Recycle plant draft from Byram. 1984 Sea-land fire downtown Byram again.

[MPG1 48]

Kings College fire. No hydrants close. Chappaqua and Croton FD"s drafted from pond. We dropped it about a foot with several hundred thousand gallons used. No big deal! It was the day of the county parade and most departments would rather be there than at a parade! We had limited mutual aid and everybody worked together. THE GOOD OLD DAY'S!

[wraftery 1,275]

I used a few gallons back in 1993 at a cockloft fire at 68 East Hartsdale Av, a tudor style ordinary multi family dwelling. It was T shaped 150x200, 6 stories in the front (A) and 8 stories in the rear (. Ladder access was only on Side A.

We operated for 6 hours with 5 aerial pipes across the front and one in the rear, along with a deluge gun at the roof level fire escape on Exposure B. As we knocked down fire from the defensive operation, we had interior crews operating with 3- 2 1/2 and 6- 1 3/4 lines as needed.

Add them up conservatively and the flow was about 8500gpm out of only 5 hydrants on 2 water mains. How is this possible, you might ask? First, the Greenburgh Water Dept. has the ability to open and close a series of valves to increase supply to the scene and lower other sections of the Town.

For the big water supply, there is a 48in pipeline that runs from Kensico Reservoir to Hilltop reservoir in Yonkers. That pipeline happens to run down East Hartsdale Av. and has a series of blowoff hydrants in case the pipe needs repair, one of which was IFO 60 East Hartsdale. The static pressure is rather low, but it rarely gets lower even with large amounts of water flowing.

Snotty will add any of the details that I left out.

[shfirefighter 19]

Hackley fire in Tarrytown?

[SECTMB 612]

In addition to Kings that Marty mentioned, we also used a few gallons for the Rte. 9A tanker fire.

[EMT348 12]

If you're in northern Westchester near the Putnam / Orange line in lets say Peekskill, Cortlandt Manor or so... You can always request Fort Montgomery which has a large quantity of large diameter hose on a reel.

[Spartan052 43]

I can think of three incidents I've responded to where the municipal water system couldn't keep up - all in Peekskill. Hampton Oaks Apartments (1999?), Main Street shopping center (2005?) & more recently the Lakewood fire (2013).

chief i thought that was lakeveiw

[Avon Rob 40]

Elmsford A&P fire back in the late 1960's. Eng. 80 from Tarrytown drafted for hours from the Saw Mill River. Also GM plant in North Tarrytown, again late 1960's.

[PEMO3 523]

Is there any systems similar to the Neptune System in the Hudson Valley that could be tapped as a resource. I know there are systems in Union and Morris county in NJ that are close to western Westchester (not sure on actual travel times).

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is there any systems similar to the Neptune System in the Hudson Valley that could be tapped as a resource. I know there are systems in Union and Morris county in NJ that are close to western Westchester (not sure on actual travel times).

That would require a regional approach to planning and training. We would rather spend our emergency service dollars on big stations to house expensive apparatus that will never have the staffing to get out the door.

[KJ8806 44]

It was the Lakeview drive fire that Car 2081 was speaking of

[Dinosaur 844]

And the purpose of this discussion is what? To reminisce about all our big failures and the fact that we haven't corrected any of the problems that helped create them?

It pains me to think of all this big jobs that kicked our asses and yet we haven't done diddly to fix the problems - like water supply problems.

[PEMO3 523]

Dinosaur I think Bnechis hit the nail on the head. Until we get past the my sandbox, my toys mentality we will nev get true solutions to the problems we face. We need to learn we are on the same team.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And the purpose of this discussion is what? To reminisce about all our big failures and the fact that we haven't corrected any of the problems that helped create them?

It pains me to think of all this big jobs that kicked our asses and yet we haven't done diddly to fix the problems - like water supply problems.

Well said.

How many depts know what the Needed Fire Flow (NFF) is for their major buildings?

In many communities, does the fire load surpase the water supply? If it does what is your plan?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."- Albert Einstien

[Bnechis 3,961]

Dinosaur I think Bnechis hit the nail on the head. Until we get past the my sandbox, my toys mentality we will nev get true solutions to the problems we face. We need to learn we are on the same team.

Actually we are on different teams. Trying to win the world series.

Consider if each dept. was a baseball team and we are going to the championship game (major league or little league it does not matter). We look at our lineup and see we only have 6 players, and we keep losing game after game.

And the team on the other side of town also only has 8 players.

We keep buying uniforms for a dozzen players. But the coach cant get any more.

Maybe its time to WORK TOGETHER. Build a winning team, and stop pretending you are a team.

[LTNRFD 266]

Actually we are on different teams. Trying to win the world series.

Consider if each dept. was a baseball team and we are going to the championship game (major league or little league it does not matter). We look at our lineup and see we only have 6 players, and we keep losing game after game.

And the team on the other side of town also only has 8 players.

We keep buying uniforms for a dozzen players. But the coach cant get any more.

Maybe its time to WORK TOGETHER. Build a winning team, and stop pretending you are a team.

Maybe when the career departments acknowledge the volunteer departments as the farm teams and use the farm teams to feed the system. Go to the "farm teams" and mold them and shape them to the standard the career departments set as the standard. Do this instead of putting people and departments down.

To paraphrase a saying in baseball, " you offer to train them and they will come"

The career departments should be the mentors and the leaders to raise the standard in Westchester.

[billfitz 109]

Maybe when the career departments acknowledge the volunteer departments as the farm teams and use the farm teams to feed the system. Go to the "farm teams" and mold them and shape them to the standard the career departments set as the standard. Do this instead of putting people and departments down.

To paraphrase a saying in baseball, " you offer to train them and they will come"

The career departments should be the mentors and the leaders to raise the standard in Westchester.

[billfitz 109]

As far as I know the Career departments don't set the standard - in NYS - OFPC sets the standard - and I beleive there are 2 standards one for Career and one for volunteer? If everyone followed the same standard it would be a level playing field. For Firefighters and Officers.