wraftery

You can't open a ship's "closed box" to let the fire out. Thai's probably the main difference. Are you using fog in shipboard firefighting?

1. Ships are different. You can't compare Apples and Oranges.

2. You are dealing with people who have different intelligence levels. Good point...and experience levels

3. Hit it from the outside for 90 sec tops? Is that a typo? It seems like a real long time.

4. Be inside when the roof is pulled and see what happens. That observation should be added to your Experience Package which lies directly under your helmet. Also tell your crew so they gain knowledge. When it happens at a job you might want to tell that the vent's good.

5. We have been talking about closing the doors, especially the VES man. Be aware that all interior doors are not created equal.

Graded from best to worst:

Hallway doors in multiple dwellings are fire rated. Even the older walkups have some kind of a rated door BEST

Older private dwellings have substantial solid doors Some Protection

Most middle aged dwellings have hollow core wood doors they Fail rapidly

New dwellings have plastic hollow core doors. VES man has to move quickly

A man doing VES can estimate the integrity of interior doors by sizing up the building type and age.

'

Just some comments on the comments

16fire5... Cap, at first glance, it looks like we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, old vs, new and so on, but I think we are much closer than it looks. I also consider FDNY and LA County as real FDs. (not so sure about Chicago). These departments take a theory and try it out in a controlled situation. They will analyze it and discuss it until they are happy with it or throw it out. Often they will either send people out of town to observe its use or talk to whoever is the expert. Then they come out with a bulletin with a complete system for when to use it, when not to and how to use it. Then after it has been used at an actual incident, it is critique by those who operated the job, especially the IC. Take PPV on attack. FDNY has strict rules for its use, a specialized company to use it trained officers to make sure it is needed, set up and operating according to plan, and observers as required for safety. There is also a PPV safety BC to make sure it is having no adverse effects. I think that is what makes a good FD.

So what is a not-so-good FD? I think there are a lot more not-so- good FDs out there and it has nothing to do with size of the department. Let's stick with PPV as our example. Someone in the department, usually the Chief or Training Officer goes to a seminar or watches a video like the LAFD one in this thread. Virtually every word in the video is important. That will tell you when to depart from the norm or the tried and true But this department jumps on the PPV bandwagon without info like input size, output size, when it is counterproductive and so on. The Training Officer does a cursory training session and PPV becomes the first tool placed in front of the building and the fan cranked on. As I said, this happens more often than not. Why? Now that FD can announce "We are a progressive FD 'cause we always use PPV on attack and youse guys are living in the past."

My point is not to abandon all your tactics that served you (and maybe your father) well for so long. There is a time and place for everything. I have ordered a knockdown from the outside for several reasons but the situation and application must be right. As I said, along with the LA video, "Don't wreck your vent." The guys in the not-so-good FDs probably let that one go by the wayside and that is one of the major and basic principals of an outside knock-down. A little twist of the wrist will change your stream to fog and screw up the tactic too.

I agree with you too that the BTU output of the average fire has increased tremendously and lightweight trusses add to the tactical problem of today. I would like to add that we also need more Firefighters. Most FD numbers of FFs have dwindled over the years.

We'll see if any real fire depts. go for this "change." Close all the doors on the inside and hit it from the outside first. It seems to me that if you could get in to close doors, you could get in and put the fire out. This sounds like Lloyd Laymen deja vu...it works in a confined space but that's all.

Bear in mind that when you hit it from the outside, you've created steam inside. You lose much of your visibility for fire attack and search and steamed any victims that might be present.

Sometimes the tactic of an outside knock-down is a good one for perhaps a fully involved basement fire that has made the basement stairs untenable. However, if you do choose the outside knock-down, bear in mind that you may not be able to get down the stairs because it is still the chimney. You're still going to heavy steam and probably zero visibility.

Look at the picture in the article at the beginning of this thread. That's a vent hole, lad. It is only one window, so you don't know the whole situation, but your best bet is to leave it as a vent hole and go inside and bang a straight stream off the ceiling of the fire room then finish it up with a lower angled line. You kept a lot of your visibility for extinguishment and search, so just thank Mother Nature she had the wind blowing in your favor.

All these studies are under controlled conditions and you can do that at an actual incident too. Just get the fire to a manageable point, by tried and true methods, then pick up your radio and say under control.

what a nice topic but for me the two people who taught me about the chacteristics of a fire which in turn helped me understand fire was county car6 dugan mcphalt (i hope i spelled it right)and arson investicator for the D.A.office Joe Butler two very well informed men way ahead of their times

I'm not sure about the first, I think it was Duncan, but I think you are talking about Scotty MacPhail

Jim Taxter Joe Butler Dan Berry Frank Brannigan

Yes, those guys were definitely the ones when it came to Building Construction, Fire Prevention, and investigation.

I saw Ed Sere mentioned. I only knew him for one thing, but it was a big change in how we operate. Ed took us out of the ladder belt rappelling method, and taught us figure eights and beeners using kernmantle rope. He had a 2-part rescue harness for a victim that I am surprised hasn't sold millions. Made of webbing loops, it could easily and hastily be put on a conscious or unconscious victim.

Then there were the Westchester Community College classmates. Those guys, like me were there on the GI Bill. The Bronx Bunch, however, were older and worked though he Burn, baby, burn era. They did trial and error tactics at not less than one multi-alarm job every night. From them came the trench cut and much more. In my class were also great men like Silvio Burigo, Capt,NRFD and Asst Chief ED Dunn, YFD. My success in the FD stems from "I wanna be like them."

Then, a good friend, Tommy Brennan, Capt, FDNY, probably best known for his Random Thoughts on the last page of Fire Engineering. Most readers of Fire Engineering read the mag from the back page first. His thoughts were not random at all. Tommy was a very focused individual and when he first met you he would ask you a few questions before he decided to talk to you.

Finally, the guy in the mirror. He always knew if I was doing the right thing.

Some light reading, before we careen down this side road one more time.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48915-fas-team-thought/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48756-fast-requirements/?hl=%2Brapid+%2Bintervention#entry278697

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/38681-fast-response-times/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/29869-what-equipment-does-your-fasteam-carry/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35611-fasteam-member-pre-requisites/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/18887-thoughts-on-fast/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/49173-the-fast-fad-what-happened/?hl=fast

You are absolutely right, Sage. I really don't want to do this again.

Before you guys start spewing FAST teams and where to get them, you really have to read the rules of engagement. Without this background information we can have no legitimate discussion.

A few knowledgeable people (Sage is one of them) try to put you on the right track, but you always ignore them and go right back to operating with your misinformation.

Read up, take a course, call PERB, do something rather than making things up and swearing you are correct.

So we throw the word "Expedite". It will soon be replaced by another word which implies the same urgency.

Any word like expedite which implies urgency will have the same reaction to those who would put the pedal down and kill or injure people with their reckless abandon.

I used forthwith before. It used to be a word like expedite, but it seemed to wear off and go to the place of adrenaline- producing words that lost their effect This is where expedite will go when the effect wears off. It's not the word that is the problem, it's that squirt of adreninene that gets people to lose control. It looks like a widespread Safety issue. Let's have a stand-down and come up with all the words and phrases that might activate the adrenal glands of the untrained. Throw the squirt-words out.

Here's a starter list:

Expedite, 10-75, CPR commenced, worker, working fire, take a hydrant, smoke showing, shots fired, pin, entrapment

Come on! If you panic over a "word," what are you going to do when you get a "situation"

Expedite is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the message is not interpreted as go to warp speed, abandon all caution, etc, etc.

If it's taken as only an advisory to that incoming unit that the situation is serious and time is of the essence. It's the same as giving the first due Truck an "expedite" because you have working fire with people trapped on the floor above. Now the incoming officer has a tactical objective.

If the medic goes to "warp speed" on the word "expedite" he doesn't need to throw out a word from his vocabulary, he needs training and a little more experience.

Thinking a little more about the incoming truck company. Telling him to "expedite, we've got people on the fire escape on the floor above" also tells other incoming companies that they should leave room for the truck. Everybody responding in will know what is going on. This only works, however, if your people are well trained and professional. Then they won't go into semi-panic mode and drive recklessly to get there.

Would the above situation have any different if the truck company officer, while responding, heard a "Mayday, Mayday, Firefighter is on the floor above and his egress is blocked.?" Would he abandon all caution or would he act the same as the fire escape situation?

Would it be different again if the radio message was "First due truck...front of the building...get your stick up forthwith."

My point is that if you are poorly trained, poorly disciplined, etc, you may abandon all caution at the word "expedite" but you probably are also the guy who responds to a reported "Trash can fire on a street corner" with reckless abandon also.

Over the years, I have seen many appointments to the position of Chief that have left all the "rules" back in the dust. I have seen a department give an internal promotion test then not like the top 3. They then threw out that list and gave an open-competitive test. Not liking that list, they brought one of their Assistant Chiefs out of retirement (long after the come back period had expired) and made him Chief. They gave him a pass/fail individual test which I believe he failed. The game was not over though. He gets 3 chances to pass the test and if he test is only given once every 4 years, he can stretch this out for a long time.

Barry, I know you are good at the letter of the rules, but this is one interpretation you won't find. The State Civil Service Commission told me in their official hearing "the Department bruised the system but didn't break it."

Expedite is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the message is not interpreted as go to warp speed, abandon all caution, etc, etc.

If it's taken as only an advisory to that incoming unit that the situation is serious and time is of the essence. It's the same as giving the first due Truck an "expedite" because you have working fire with people trapped on the floor above. Now the incoming officer has a tactical objective.

If the medic goes to "warp speed" on the word "expedite" he doesn't need to throw out a word from his vocabulary, he needs training and a little more experience.

Because they don't care unless it is their house burning...and the city never cared about the fd

Wrong there...Mt. Vernon once had an excellent fire department. That was when the city cared.

Nope our plan allows every portable radio in the county to operate on our fire ground,

Today we had a little drill: FDNY, WC-DES (com unit), Eastchester (Eng), Fairview (Eng), Greenville (Eng), Hartsdale (Eng), Larchmont (Eng), Mt. Vernon (Eng), Montrose VA (Eng), New Rochelle (eng, lad, msu), Pelham (Eng), Pelham Manor (Eng), Scarsdale (Eng), White Plains (Eng, step ladder), Yonkers (eng, lad, com unit) & OFPC. (I think I got everyone)

Doing live fire training, highrise and residential, FAST/Mayday training. Also working on command & communications issues.

For communications, everyone was using one of 3 common fireground channels (based on scenario). everyone was able to talk to who they needed to. In addition FDNY & NRFD had E.F.A.S. operating and we could see each others radio traffic and we could see all of the FDNY maydays on our system as they came in. NRFD rolled out SIMS II as part of our EFAS command board. We were able to see the air levels of all NRFD & YFD scba's and their pass alarm status.

I stand corrected, Barry. The thread sounded like NRFD was using a "local" fireground freq that mutual aid did not have access to or were not advised to go to channel #xxx. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, that sounded like a good drill. Wish I was there.

I can almost bet that Walter never had 8 aides at the command post!

5/23,1993 He had me. I had 8.

So therefore, you are wrong, he had 9. I can dig out the communications plan for the incident I am referring to if you need verification.

So many frequencies now and we don't use them to our advantage.

The new system allows you to do two things: Talk to somebody or not talk to somebody.

Gone are the days where the IC required 8 men at the CP because there were 8 different frequencies operation on the fireground with none able to talk to eachother. Then, the IC might have to wait 2 minutes to get free air time to call another unit to the scene.

NRFD's radio plan looks like it could use a little fixin, Barry

Seeing this great job done by the Mail Man using a garden hose, reminds me of something we use to do back "in the day" . We use to carry a 25ft length of garden hose rolled tight and strapped, with a nozzle on one end and a universal fitting on the other, this fitting looked like a chrome Venus fly trap with an adjustable rubber mouth that could fit over most household facets, sinks or bath tubs. The purpose of this was to hold a fire until the line got up to you or if you arrived without an engine.

It sort of went the way of the Buffalo, however I still thought it was a good idea. Might have problems now with the elaborate decorative facets. Also, with these new expandable garden hoses seen on TV this concept might return

Yessir, we used to use them for incineratiors and each incinerator closet had a sink. Incinerators are what went away, replaced by compactors, and the sinks followed shortly thereafter. As for the Venus fly trap attachment, I know exactly what it looks like but I haven't seen one in years. Try Bed Bath and Beyond.

When I was a kid, we had one of those universal fly traps hanging in the bathroom (yes, only one bathroom). I believe it was New York State Law that kids under 12, when done with their shower, were required to hook up the Venus device and wash down the tub.

I can't give you a horse story, but I know a good Dalmatian one:

I was at a seminar and the Speaker was explaining complete with slides, that the reason for FDs having Dalmatians was because they would run ahead of the horse team. As a result, the horse team would kind of chase the Dalmatian.

The horses would then run faster and the fire engine would get to the fire sooner. Afterward he said "Any questions?"

I put up my hand and said "Wouldn't that mean that the dog would have to know where the fire is?"

Chief Raftery, you failed to mention the horses started to come out of their stalls after the first didgit

I am pretty allergic to horses, so I was never able to hang out with them. You were there when they had boxes. If it stated with a 3 it was up da west. I bet you knew by the first digit whether you were going or not,

I also knew it was a "biggie" if New Ro's whistles started blowing. In fact for Hubbel's Lumber yard, they must have blown for the better part of a night. I was just a kid for that!

900 of 1150 jobs? Do you mean civil service firefighter positions?

I know there are a lot of FD's in Westchester but there aren't 1150, right?

I am not sure what he means, but there are 56 FDs in Westchester, 10 are what I would consider "mostly Paid." There are about 1150 paid FFs in Westchester. Paid Depts and paid FFs are mostly in southern part of the county, south of I-287 (a line about 10 miles north of the NY City line)

This area is considered "Downstate" by people north of us and considered "Upstate" by our Bronx Brothers. Now do you know why we are usually confused?

I think I might hire the construction laborer. If you had a shi*^y job, at least you realize what a good job firefighting is. If after all his education, aptitude, certifications and so on, the laborer still beat him by a point. That says a lot for that laborer. Maybe he never had enough money to pay for higher education. Maybe he bought a couple of prep books and studied every chance he got.

One thing you do know is that he has a job that requires hard work at sometimes menial tasks, and sometimes for hours at a time. (Sound familiar to those firefighters out there?) And amazingly he still beat the paramedic by a point!

Paramedics, don't get your knickers in a knot. I still like you and I'm not the one who picked "paramedic vs. laborer" to be the example. When the Yankees play the Red Sox, if Boston scores just one more run than the Yankees, guess who loses?

The test is given every four years because the demand on jobs isn't there. If the test were every year the b**** would be "Why do they give the test every year to 1000 people and then hire only 50 a year?

Scantron tests that take six months for a list to be posted is beyond me. You'll just have to ask somebody else about how that works.

Qualifying before hiring is done in Florida. See how many people are disgruntled because they spent so much time and money qualifying and never got hired. Does the statement "You have to be a firefighter before you can become a firefighter" make any sense to you?

No reflection on the instructors just the pathetic politicians who dumb down the standards

Speaking of instructors, Cap, whether it be FDNY, Westchester, or any proby school in the country worth its salt, look at the instructors. They are not assigned to proby school at random. They are there because they have the knowledge, skills, drive, and dedication necessary to mold firefighters out of ordinary people.

After a person graduates from college, chances are that if you ask him a question from HisMajor 101, he won't be able to answer it because he has forgotten the material. Do any of us remember high school algebra?

A firefighter, on the other hand, is required to remember what he has learned for the rest of his life, and to pull out the correct answer in seconds at any time of the day or night, sometimes with people screaming in his ear.

The judges in the FDNY cases assume it's just another job. We know it's not. Maybe the answer is that the judges should put one of their investigators undercover through proby school. No, make that three investigators because one would wash out, the second might tell the judge what it is really like. And the third? He will take the test for firefighter.

I've been around a long time, and all these years, I thought the job of instructors there was to ride everybody's butt to push them to the limit. What will these watered down guys do when they catch a real job? Will we have federal judges at the Command Posts to tell them not to cry?

My only advice to the real brothers is this: If you catch a job with these watered-down guys, keep them on front of you as you work your way down the hall to the fire. That way, they can't leave you.

Battery Killer

That's the next thing was looking at

Is this still being tested/used? I have been on it a few times and never seem to see anyone online. It might just be that I am on at odd times of the day and night.

I'm trying it for the first time, put in the channel like Seth said and the only one listed is me as "DCRET". I did, however, talk to a lady in S Africa and she is vacationing there from Australia. I thought that was cool. As far as emtBravo goes, we need a lot more to sign up before you get any kind of an answer back