Morningjoe

Now that you've shown me your underside;

"In the vertical ventilation study, a 4’ x 8’ ventilation opening removed an even larger amount of hot smoke and fire gases. However, without water on the fire to reduce the heat release rate and return the fire to a fuel controlled regime, the increased air supply caused more products of combustion to be released than could be removed through the opening, overpowering the ventilation openings and worsening conditions on the interior."

"Vertical ventilation is the most efficient type of natural ventilation, it not only removes a large amount of smoke, but it also introduces a large amount of air into the building (the mass of smoke and air out must equal the mass of air introduced). If uncoordinated with fire attack, the increase in oxygen will result in increased fire development and heat release. "

"

• If the fire is in a fuel controlled burning regime, effective vertical tactical ventilation will provide a lift in the smoke level and slow fire development even if fire attack is delayed. This was commonly seen in the legacy fire environment, but is unlikely in the modern fire environment due to the high heat release rate of modern fuels and fuel loads found in today’s buildings."

"

• If the fire is ventilation controlled, the effectiveness of vertical tactical ventilation on improving conditions is dependent on concurrent application of water onto the fire. Note that this requires effective fire attack, not simply a charged line at the door or being advanced into the building. Once ventilation openings are created, the clock is ticking on increased heat release rate."

I'll save more for later if necessary, but maybe its time for you to think a little more about why you do what you do, and if it is or is not the best thing to do, or if you're just putting everyone at greater risk because hey, i'm in the truck, I need to break everything I can find.

For all who have heard the Boston double LODD audio take note that the mayday was called at the 7 min mark. Question to all what departments have a FAST team in place within the first couple minutes of the incident. This is just a different take on the question that started this thread.

Just another reason why the department I volunteer for dispatches a FASTeam with the initial dispatch of any reported structural type fire.

I wonder what percentage of Firefighters could have made the 2 moves that that tradesman did?

It's amazing that some firemen can even move at all...

OK,"Morningjoe"

My profile may say "Paramedic" but that is not the extent of my emergency service experience. Yes, I did work for a large, urban County-based Fire Department. But what I choose to put in my profile is my choice - and doesn't completely divulge my work experience or what I now do for work (not volunteer, I can assure you).

And before I go on and on, urging you to reread my post, let me summarize it for you that I did not defend the 2 man engine staffing. I simply stated that the staffing scenario in the article does not take into consideration ALL resources and staffing that Greenwich has for calls. I was annoyed that Seth posted an article simply to stir crap, without doing any research to give the whole story.

Stop calling me someone who is suppose to "be on the same team" as you - I'm NOT a volunteer (unlike you). I AM a Paramedic (unlike you). I was a career firefighter (unlike you). And, I have first hand experience with the municipal services and issues in Greenwich (probably UNLIKE you, but your profile doesn't say where you're actually from).

And, just so you don't look like a fool in the future, Atropine was never in the protocol for "heartattack." There is no "Heartattack" protocol. Please stop using EMS verbiage that you obviously don't understand. You remind me of the psych patient I had a short time ago who told me that she was in "Cardiac Arrest." She too (just like you) didn't know what she was ranting about, and all I did was laugh about how stupid she sounded.

I'm on my phone right now, but I'll keep this short and sweet.

We both assumed more then we should have. I'm both career and volunteer. I started as a volly and got hired, and continue to volunteer with the same all volunteer department to this day. I work on two man engines and single man trucks. Glad to know you had a job in the fire service.

I'll hit more when I get back to a computer

What really irks me, more then the article itself, is that we have a fellow emergency provider, someone who is supposed to be on the same team as all of us, trying to defend the abysmal staffing of what occurs in almost 99.9% of career departments (volunteer staffing is a different problem altogether, and I'm a volunteer). It's not safe for anyone, and anyone who sits there and tries to defend it is absolutely clueless about firefighting, the safety issues that we face (and manage to miraculously dodge fire after fire without more LODDs), and the politicians that we currently fight with day in and day out to provide a safe environment for the communities we've sworn to protect. All of the fire engines in the world mean absolutely nothing, if the correct staffing levels are not there to safely, correctly and efficiently do the job.

I am not a paramedic, and will never sit there and attempt to tell you your protocols need to change when it comes to dosage rates of atropine during a heart attack, because I don't have a damn clue about what I'm talking about. I am not a electrician, nor a painter, or a ditch digger, or a cable repair man, so I will never sit there and tell them how to do their job, or the correct and safe way to do it.

So until you strap on a pair of bunkers, make a hallway, pull a victim out, all while having a vertical vent simultaneously cut, with multiple handlines being stretched, don't tell me the safe way to do my job, because I've also done it the poor staffing way, and can tell you the horrible differences between the two.

This is a public forum now, and every reply that is posted can be read by the public, press, politicians, and those who vote. And for someone who is supposed to be on the same team, as stated in your affiliations under your user name, to sit there and say 2 guys on a rig is perfectly good, does absolutely nothing but hurt us, and all the years of work that unions have fought for.

/rant.

You make it sound like the only piece of apparatus going to a call is one engine with two people on it, or volunteers are showing up/responding in their cars only. Multiple stations are assigned to calls and staffing from stations can be mixed - paid and volunteers. The only all paid stations, Central and 8, have more than 2 men on shift, and travel around town with more than 2 on a piece.

I cannot imagine that GFD responds, on the first alarm within 8 minutes, this:

Anything less, and you're endangering life, of both your citizens, as well as the firefighters there.

I almost feel that changing Type V construction to read "legacy wood" and adding a Type 6 for "light weight wood truss" would benefit classification, and building identity.

You must be a huge liability to your organization...

You must be a ton of fun at parties

Responsibility depends on the jurisdiction. Some places the responsibility to keep it clear rests solely on the property owner.

Right now, where I volunteer, any structural related incident in the hydrant portion of our district will be a "tanker response," and any 10-75 will be our normal complement of an additional mutual aid engine for water supply and 3 tankers. 90% of our 1000+ hydrants remain completely covered in snow, and the residents come up with every excuse in the book on why they shouldn't dig them out. The town, and our volunteers do not have the time or man power to accomplish this massive task, in addition to it being town law for the property owner to clear the hydrant.

Is this one of the items from your old volley department that you stole, and tried to sell on Ebay?

There have been warnings about the dangers of smoking on the cigarette packages for over 40 years. People still smoke. I am actually offended by the deterrent commercials that I have to endure during my shows

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f****** what." - Stephen Fry

You are talking about society in general when you say that, but firefighters were always a different type of people than the rest of the population. We don't want ordinary people on our job. AS CAPT2102 said, you hand him the right raw materials and he will build a firefighter. We need the right combination of balls and brains to come to us in the hiring process and we'll take it from there. You know, we need the ones who run into burning buildings when ordinary people are running out. The tests ordered by the courts don't take this into account when judges make their rulings.

I agree that everybody should get an equal chance to try to get on this job. But that's it! We should not have to hire equally. I'm not talking race, religion, or color here. I am talking about hiring persons that have the raw materials we need to make that person one of us.

One thing that bugs be is the training saying "Is the scene safe?" If the answer is "no" then stage around the block or don't enter the building, or wait for 53 more persons show up.etc.

"Is the scene safe?" No, it's not safe, a$$hole, that's why they called us. If the scene were safe, any idiot could handle it. Our job is to look at that scene, perform a risk vs. benefit analysis within 30 seconds, start an incident action plan within the next 30 seconds, and put that plan into action.

I don't think that the guy should be on this job if: He can't spell (little words, not hard ones like Polychlorinated Biphentls), and can only answer questions like "there are three men assigned to an engine company. One gets arrested, How many are left?"

By the way,Anybody know how many judges or ACLU lawyers passed proby school?

Chief, I think you mean Polychlorinated Biphenyls

In all seriousness though, spot on Chief, spot on.

Anyone have the answer for this?

If you need an answer that badly, call the civil service office. Don't go by hearsay on here.

Yorktown has a water rescue truck with quite the compliment of Dive/swift water and ice rescue capabilities. Last year, along with Somers FD and the NYSP helicopter, they rescued 3 civilians trapped/fallen through the ice off Rt 100 in Somers.

As far as I know, most departments have the equipment, and the trained personnel, just not designated water rescue apparatus. Equipment may be stored on engines, ladders or rescues, just depends on the department

We use to have some WCPD pilots on here what ever happened to them?

Permenantly grounded due to strong storm fronts....

When the full transition occurs, will somers be dispatched on 46.26 and use fire 13, or will they remain on their own channel?

I'll throw battalion 17 into the mix...

Continental Village:

Engine 231 - 1998

Rescue 39 - 1994

Millwood:

Engine 247 - 1998

Rescue 36 - 1990

Tanker 15 - 1994

Lake Mohegan:

Engine 253 '94 Freightliner Allegheny

Engine 254 '94 Freightliner Allegheny

Engine 255 '92 Pemfab Allegheny (replacement committee is active)

Ladder 10 '96 Spartan Smeal

Yorktown:

Engine 271 - 1996 KME

Tanker 14 - 1994 Semo

Rescue 55 (Water rescue) - 1990/2009 interior upgrade Chevy / union (old snap on tool truck)

Don't forget pissing away moneys on parades and tee shirts and beer.

If they are non-operational why do they even exist?

Because in places like Yorktown, the main firehouse is actually a private building, and it, including the land in the back property is owned by the Engine Company, not the tax district. The board of directors is responsible for the upkeep of it. Buildings and grounds, recruitment, ect, that are not run by the district and must be taken care of some how. The fundraising money that our Company uses goes directly towards electricity, oil, gas, and other such expendatures that the taxes do not pay. Our firefighters actually pay $12 a year in membership dues to be firemen to help offset the cost.

We have been trying as much as possible in the recent years to inform the public of our two seperate and distinct organizations, and how the operate, but our efforts can only go so far because the general public just doesnt care. When we fundraise, it bears the name of the Engine Company, not the fire district for this reason.

http://www.yorktownfire.org/content/recruit/file/prospective%20membership%20guide.pdf

Scroll down to page 5 for the way our department is structured

Are you sure that vans and trucks are tested? At one point crash test were only required on cars and not on cans and trucks.

But there are a few hundred can crush experiments out there. Here's one:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vcsxB5dKJMg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvcsxB5dKJMg

Scenario:

Aircraft crash lands into a residential neighborhood in NYS. The neighborhood is covered by a Town Police Department, Volunteer Fire District which does not provide EMS, and Volunteer BLS EMS agency, paid Medics.

Is the scene a crime scene,or is it an accident scene? At what point, if it does change from an accident to crime, does that happen? Are the Police in charge from the get go, or is the Fire Department? If the Police on location claim its a crime scene before the fire department arrives, does that mean it's a crime scene?

Seriously though, lets allow EMT's to drop combi-tubes or king airways before we start talking about pushing meds to wake junkies.

Also, who will own the radios? Will the county or individual departments? Westchester vs. Putnam comes to mind....

Will 60- Control hear fireground communications, aka mayday transmissions from the firefighters?

Will all current portables have to be switched over or will the county fire grounds still be in use?

Edit: will the IC still have to carry two sometimes 3 (depending on the municipality) radios around?

I'm all in favor of a new system if it designed right and will work with all departments, all the time across the board. If this system will allow fire/ems possibly police dispatch, along with fireground channels, individual department frequencies, all programmed into a single radio where I can select between Somers fire ground, county fire ground 3, elmsford fire, Yonkers dispatch, UCALL/UTAC, all without having to pick up additional radios, or worry about what channel has each frequency depending on each department, then I'm all for it. If individual departments want to operate on a home channel, that's perfectly fine, but if I'm called mutual aid to you, I better be able to talk to you with what ever radio I am bringing with me.

We going to be able to get MDTs in the rig, and maybe a "rip and run" system?