firemoose827

You can not compare it with a combination dept. One guy is doing for free what you are doing to feed your family. I would not want to sit with a guy who would be the one stealing the fork out of my mouth, or worse my wife's! Outside of the work place setting is where you see it. But at work you are at work, where you get paid to do your job. And to be honest, the 'brotherhood' is about what happens when you are not at work, not being paid to do something, that is what makes it so special. I have helped at guys houses I hated, why? Cause its not about personalities, it is about the bond that if I need help they would be there too.

Here is where I do not agree with some of you guys...this is a bit wrong on all levels. If you are career in a combination department and you feel "threatened" by the volunteers that might "take your job away" there is more issues there then you know. If I was a volunteer in a career combination department I would not be trying to take anyones job. I would have my resume in for when there are openings from retirement or someone moving out of the area, but I would never try to back-stab a brother who is already being paid for the job. I am still going to be volunteer and have tremendous pride in being able to respond to calls and help where I can, but would never step on the toes of the career crew, or back-stab them in any way. If this is happening; SHAME on those members.

But on the other hand; SHAME on those career guys simply for thinking that just because a volunteer shows up, they are taking the "fork" out of your mouths. They are showing up to help you, back you up and make sure you all go home at the end of the shift so you CAN pick up that fork with your family. We should alll WORK TOGETHER, dont you think??? This thinking is all wrong and I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings here either, but those of us volunteers that take pride in our training and pride in our ability to help others only want to help; both the people we serve and our career brothers/sisters who are severely under-staffed and under-funded. I for one dont want to see any ONE career firefighter have to do EVERYTHING alone, I want to help, I want to make sure they dont get hurt, not back-stab them.

Maybe I am wrong in this line of thinking and i know there are those scum out there trying to take your job from you, everyone wants to be career firefighter and support their families doing a job they LOVE, but it shouldnt divide us...shouldnt it?

Pretty fitting here I think......

1186095_624804580886536_1335029643_n.jpg

Do you recognize this man? Do you know his name?

Lots of people know he’s an actor, and that his name is Steve Buscemi.

What very few people realize is that he was once one of New York’s Bravest.

In 1976 Steve Buscemi took the FDNY civil service test when he was just 18 years old. In 1980 Steve Buscemi became a New York City Firefighter.

For four years, Buscemi served on one of FDNY's busiest, Engine Co. 55 in Manhattan's Little Italy. He later left the fire service to become a successful actor, writer and director.

After 9/11/2001... Brother Buscemi returned to FDNY Engine 55.

On September 12, 2001 and for several days following Brother Steve worked 12-hour shifts alongside other firefighters digging and sifting through the rubble from the World Trade Center looking for survivors.

Very few photographs and no interviews exist because he declined them. He wasn't there for the publicity.

In 2003 he also gave a speech at a union rally supporting higher wages for firefighters and to stop fire houses from closing. He got arrested along with other firefighters.

Also not very well known is that in 2012 Brother Buscemi showed up in Breezy Point, NY and quietly assisted in the clean-up efforts of the damage and mass destruction left by Super Storm Sandy.

Once a brother, always a brother!

Just so we're clear… this guy is a Badass !!!

Tip of the helmet Brother Steve!

Jonathan Lusk

Publisher ~ Brotherhood of Fire

Captain ~ Fresno Fire, CA ~ E18C

“Brotherhood Strong”

Thank you cogs, you beat me to it.

I never knew that about him, but I will watch all of his movies now and respect him a lot more. That to me is a true test of brotherhood...here you have a famous actor, successfull, he could have very easily made a big spectacle out of it with video cameras and taking pictures of him in his gear shaking babies and kissing hands and "helping" his former work buddies dig through the pile. But he didnt. He kept his identity secret and did what he knew was right and went to look for the guys that were lost and never made it public. THATS brotherhood.

As an assistant chief I have never worked with these or went to a fire involving them. They are in my area on PD's but have never dealt with them. This is a good wake up call for me to have something at drill about these.

All good points and good information being shared, please keep it up, anyone else have more?

Stay Safe.

This is my opinion and how I look at it. I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

Unfortunately unless you call a bunch of two faced and/or backstabbing babies and/or useless social clubbers a brother, the brotherhood is stronger then ever. In my opinion, to be considered a "brother" in the Fire Department, you would actually have to be a firefighter, one who has fought a fire or has been of use at a fire. A "good firefighter" who can tell you good story about a job at the kitchen table. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely proud of where I come from. I believe we run one of the most professional organizations around. BUT, I do come from 20/80 firehouse. 20% of us put our whole life into it and 80% are here for the food, funny drinks, and parades. I often find myself listening to real estate competition and stay at home dad stories. It is very rare I use the term brother with anyone. Not even a "thanks, brother". Lack of fires keep social clubbers around and do not interest gung-ho guys to stay active or join, the guys I would probably end up calling a brother.

When I think of "brotherhood" I think firemen who cook together, clean together, train together, go on runs together, and come home together. Even outside the firehouse these men are together.

No offence but I don't put an ounce of trust into the 12%'er just getting by who comes around for his 3 free meals a month and 3 nights out on the town with the boys a year. How does anyone of this description make up a "brotherhood"? Or at least a true "Fire service brotherhood"?

Again, my opinion. What brotherhood?

I respect your opinion and agree with it for the most part. But I will respectfully ask you this; please do not group all of us in this 80% group that you have experienced until you have actually worked with all of us.

I may not be at the firehouse as much as I want to be, or I may not have fought as many fires as you have fought, but I have fought fires, I have done searches for victims many times and have found them, but not the way I wanted to find them and its multiple images I will never get rid of and a source of pain for my pride that I could not help these people. I train hard, harder than any other volunteer in my department, and currently hold many titles that i will not waste time posting. I take pride in what I do and was brought up the right way with that sense of brotherhood, and I learned that brotherhood from those three career FDNY guys I had the priviledge of working with my first 4 years in the fire service on Long Island and will never forget them.

Im not your typical volunteer, and there are others here on this site that are not the typical volunteer either. Dont get me wrong, there are the wackers here that "Play" volunteer fireman, and dress up and think its cool to play with sirens and deck their cars out with all sorts of strobes and flashers and blinky things...not me. I take it seriously. Im one of the volunteers that strongly agree we should have the same training standards and physical fitness requirements that career firefighters have and am actively fighting that with letters to my government reps and FASNY. I blog about it in another firefighters web site I go to frequently as well and try to get others to agree.

I enter the same burning buildings with the same turnout gear and the same set of irons and the same hose line and I agressively attack the seat of the fire just like I am trained to do.

I think the brotherhood has been killed by situations like these (the above mentioned experiences between volunteer and career members). If you look at my experience with the 4 career staff at the large main street fire, should he realy have acted that way towords me? Especially since most would think a young guy like me should be the one picking up the hose instead of the more experienced member? I was doing what my father and other senior guys taught me all my life; respect the senior men and officers, always jump in and help any firefighter no matter what the job, and always be first to volunteer for any assignment.

I am thankfull for all of the replies on this topic as well as all of the messages I received from members regarding brotherhood and sharing your stories with me too. I respect all of your opinions and I am thankfull no major wars have been started yet. Keep the discussion going and share more brotherhood experiences and stay safe. Have a great weekend too!

Good topic.

For many of is that have been around awhile it does seem as though Brotherhood in the fire service is dying, because by and large it is. There are a number of specific reasons why this is so, but all share one thing in common, a change in society to one which is far more self serving and filled with a sense of entitlement. Almost every TV show, pop song, movie or other pop culture medium instills the virtue of me me me instead of us us us. It's hard to reach through to someone that has been brought up on a steady diet of: success is measured in the number of thing I have and I must do whatever it takes to get them because I'm entitled to them. There's no room left for us, in fact there is no us in that equation, because it's all about me and what I deserve. And the sad fact is we have all contributed to this change to a greater or lesser degree, not out of malice or greed, but simply because we too succumbed to that constant barrage. To me the slow loss of Brotherhood is ultimately our own fault because we did nothing to stop it. Remember new members only know what they come into when it comes to the culture, camaraderie and tradition of our departments. They can only erode the bonds of Brotherhood within our organizations if we allow that erosion to take place or worse cause it ourselves by our actions (or inaction), even if unintentional.

Now at the risk of offending I feel I must touch on an 800 pound gorilla in the room. In my experience if there is one area in which Brotherhood has taken it's greatest hit overall, it is in the relationship between career and volunteer. Years ago many career firefighters were active and in fact vital members of volunteer departments where they lived and worked. In my City it was a common sight to see a career member working alongside a volunteer, both in the VFD gear since both were members. For reasons stemming from legal constraints and politics to stubbornness and an inability to adapt to change this has waned over the years and now much of our service is plagued by infighting and outright animosity. We ourselves have driven a wedge into the very heart of the notion of Brotherhood because we ourselves are at odds. New members come into this environment and are told the grand tales of Brotherhood among all FFs, only to learn that the words and the reality don't quite mesh many times. And this disparity then undermines the whole principle. It becomes a case of actions speaking louder than words.

In the end Brotherhood will only die if we allow it to. How we act and react, how we conduct ourselves on scene and off and how well we practice what we preach will ultimately decide the future of our Brotherhood...the choice and the future are ours to make.

Stay Safe

You are correct, I knew 3 guys when I was in Long Island that worked for FDNY, and they were volunteers for my past department there, one was a lieutenant serving under my father as Captain in the Engine Co.. All three guys were upstanding gentlemen and always offered the younger guys like me any and all advice that we would listen to, and I listened. Every drill we had I followed them and learned from them and they never stopped teaching and never had a bad attitude towards the volunteers. They were true brothers that didnt look at "volunteers" or "career", they only saw "firefighter" and showed tremendous brotherhood and support.

Then I moved upstate...The first big fire I went to was two towns away from us, BIG main street fire involving a row of buildings. The one career department in that county was on scene with their aerial ladder and 4 guys, they were operating all night and in the morning had about 4000 feet of 5" to pick up. I saw them starting to pick up and I went over and started to help. The one guy looked up and saw who I was and told me to "F Off you jolly volly probie, we can handle our own sh*#!!!" I was amazed. I looked at him and said "Im just trying to help pick up all this 5" hose" and he got even angrier and said they didnt need any volunteer help, to go find a bar and get my irish on.

I walked away. Their chief was in the truck turning something off and he jumped down and told me not to take it personal, they were all crabby they had to work OT. I said that I was there for 18 hours myself and not getting paid to do it, yet I still offered to help pick up the enormous amount of LDH they had out. The chief appreciated it, and thanked me, I even saw the chief at the firehouse later that morning and he had breakfast with me and the guys from my department and he apologized again. Some have brotherhood, some do not. The chief had it, his own crew did not.

I have had other experiences with both fellow volunteer and other career "brothers", some good some horrible, but I always continue to show as much brotherhood as I can. If I see an IAFF tee-shirt I will walk over and shake hands with them and introduce myself. If I see one of the buffs with a Volunteer tee-shirt, hat, buttons, patches, rings, watches, jackets and the huge blue bar light hanging over either side of his truck...I pretend like I dont know them...

Cogs, does the brotherhood you have with other soldiers differ from that of the fire service or is it the same? I would imagine it is even stronger than ours. I know that is still strong and not in danger, what are you guys doing to keep it strong (Other than keeping each other alive in firefights and mine fields)?

Stay safe too.

Antiquefirelt, I do think you hit the nail dead center on the head.

Respect for senior firefighters and officers has been destroyed by self-centered arrogant cocky young pups fresh out of firefighter 1 training who think they know it all too. Technology has taken away that close knit family feeling, and then the younger age coming in today are all "know-it-alls" because their daddy was a chief or their whole family was in the department...wrong. They come in instantly barking orders and demanding respect...wrong.

When I first joined in Long Island, I kept quiet, listened when a senior firefighter or officer spoke, volunteered for every assignment even if it was cleaning toilets, we had to stand at attention whenever the chief entered the meeting room during meetings or drills, and I never let a senior firefighter pack hose after calls even if I were exhausted. I asked them questions and tried to learn something new every time, even if I was already comfortable with what we were drilling on. I never acted cocky, or arrogant, or touted my own horn. After time, I saw that I EARNED the respect they finaly showed me when I was around the station, and I was able to joke around more. It took time. Today; everyone expects instant over-night success and respect just because they joined. I fully blame that on what was already mentioned a few times; todays kids are getting awards for everything, even just for participating, and they never fail and do not learn that they have to work hard to succeed. They are now turning 18 and joining the fire service expecting to be rewarded instantly for everything, and they dont know how to earn anything. Its sad.

I guess old timers like you and I are a thing of the past...

Brotherhood is dead, I dont know when it was on life support or how it ever was allowed to slip away like it did, but people like me, and you (antiquefirelt, Firnatine, and others) will still try to pass on the traditions and share the brotherhood that we have still in our hearts. Its up to the others to accept it and practice it though and thats what bothers me...

I wanted to find out what everyones thoughts were on brotherhood in the fire service and maybe hear some memories of what a good strong brotherhood should be like.

Brotherhood to me is dead. I dont see it anymore and if it is claimed to be alive its fake and only for certain "Cliques" in the department; if you are not a member you dont exist.

The fire service should be a second family, which is why we call each other "brother" or "Sister", but you should MEAN what you say, and ACT as family and not just talk a big game.

When I was young and on Long Island with my father in my first department, I was constantly at the firehouse with him since I was in diapers. Most of the membership had actually changed my diapers or babysat for me or picked me up from school once when my dad was hurt bad in a construction accident where he works and brought to the hospital to my mother who was already there. Then a bunch of them STAYED at the hospital until my dad was stable, running errands for my mom, getting my mom, brother and I food...It was a true family.

When I became a member upstate it was a different world. I was a member for 9 years when my 2 year old son passed away, and only 2 members; thats right, only TWO members came to my sons funeral. None of them came to the hospital when he was there, or to our house to see if we needed anything...it was not a family.

I am in department number 4 now, and the last department I will be in because we just got our first house. But the department has very little "brotherhood" and as a chief I am trying to change that. I am trying to get more department functions, and trying to get the members to call each other more and help each other more. But you can't force something or order something like brotherhood on your members, it needs to be genuine and from the heart and meant for the entire department, right down to that annoying guy who keeps irritating the hell out of you at drills and meetings.

Brotherhood...Does it still exist in your area?

That kind of thinking is exactly what's wrong with the fire service today. People who just sit back and say "it won't work" Maybe it won't work everywhere, but it would be a start. How can any city administrator or town manager really hold a volunteer chief responsible for what goes on in the department? If the Chief's position was a full time paid position, it would be a start to get some accountability. As far as being REQUIRED to do things, you don't need the state, the NFPA standards is what every department should strive for. The name of this thread is "If you are not moving forward, you are already behind" Your thinking is exactly why some many fire departments are behind.

As everyone here knows, or should know, NFPA Standards are just that; standards. They are glorified recommendations that NFPA boards of specialists suggest we follow in our agencies. They are not requirements, but standards put together by a board of experts in the field and offered as suggestions of what we as fire departments should strive to follow. These standards are then taken and voted on and turned into state and local laws, if approved. BUT...If you fail to follow what a board of experts suggested resulting in a serious injury or death??? Courts will rip you apart for that as a chief, whether you are a volunteer or career chief.

Good luck with FASNY....I wrote them years ago when I was working as both a CFI and SFI and when the state went from the Basic, Int, and advanced cirriculum to FF1 and FF2. I expressed my concern that the time has come that we (volunteers) need to come up to par with the rest of the country with training. I felt that the FF1 as we have now was not enough for entry level and should include FAST, AVET, and HAZ-OPS at a minumum. Got no where.

That is the issue, you were one of the only ones to write them your concerns. What needs to happen is ALL of us need to write FASNY and our local government and the state requesting these changes as a whole body of concerned firefighters. I will be doing this soon myself so if anyone is interested in collaborating let me know, we can write a decent letter if we put many minds to the task.

It's not just the training. There should also be a physical standard. Career firefighters I. Westchester have to pass a CPAT to get into the academy and another CPAT to get out. Why is it not the same for the volunteers? Has anyone noticed what I have? A simple pat on the back from the doctor does not mean your capable of fighting a fire or doing 90% of the other work we do as firefighters both career and volunteer. We do the same job why is it not treated the same? As a chief of a dept don't you want the best? Or do you want the kids that was sheltered by his parents playing video games and being told everyone gets a trophy during tball. If you don't make a change that's what your getting. Half of the new kids signing up have no idea that there life is on the line and the choice they made to become a firefighter can be tested at any moment and the may have to act with courage to save a life. They DONT get it and YOUR responsible!!!!

I agree completely with the physical standards being the same as well. Too many firefighters are dropping with heart related and unknown medical causes during and after the response. How many times have we all read about LODD that happened at the station AFTER the call was over? Firefighters found in their bunks, or in the shower deceased?? We are dropping like flies because we are not physically fit, and it needs to change. Dont get me wrong, my nickname is moose for a reason; not because I am a muscle bound freak, but because I have a convenient shelf to put my plate at dinner time or my beer while watching football, and I need to loose it BIGTIME. I am a chief, and the message I am sending the members is the wrong one. If we had standards for physical fitness I would have worked hard to keep my post-high school physique I had after playing baseball; I was 195 pounds and in the best shape of my life...now the only shape I am in is round. We as volunteers need to have the same training and the same physical fitness standards as the career departments do, and as someone already said above, if we end up loosing people because of the increase in standards then they are the ones we did not need int he first place. Im all for change, and its needed.

I think the last bubble on the cartoon should say "Where did I leave my pants...."

I agree and this is why my area isnt where we are supposed to be as a fire service, the old gaurd had become too complacent and never planned for the future. I was at a meeting at the beginning of the month to discuss our new station with the community and they were all asking why it had to be so big, why it had to have showers and a washer and dryer. When I explained about trying to think for the future of the department, and the increasing size of modern fire aparattus and the future needs of the fire service they were stunned into silence.

We need to think of the future in every move we make and prepare for it always. Good points, especially for the physical fitness program for volunteers, we have annual physicals but no fitness test which I believe we should in order to cut back on heart attacks and those "unknown medical" reasons for firefighters to drop at the station after calls.

I don't understand how anyone over 5'6" would enjoy being in a Charger, but to each his own.

The Taurus isnt any better either. I own a Taurus and drive one at work too, cant fit in either of them and my back KILLS me when I drive them.

I guess no one uses a county wide system like we do? It makes sense to have the same Accountability tags for all departments so its easier to find the info you needed without having to guess who has what type of card or what color red is here or blue is there...KISS

Our county fire coordinator has the software and machine in his office, you go and have your picture taken, they put a scan bar on it that has your medical info and training record. On the back they list the limportant certs you have like "FF2, Haz-Mat, EMT, ICS, NIMS, Ladder Ops, Rescue Ops, Investigation" Etc Etc for quick review. The colors are all the same for each department; green interior red exterior, blue EMS, orange is explorer.

When they need to they scan the card and it lists all medical info, emergency contacts, training records and department info.

When I was an EMT-CC the local ED's always wanted a report regardless of status so they knew what we were bringing, and towords the end of my EMT days they even started to tell us certain PT's could be "triaged" in the lobby, meaning we are full with patients that actually need help so they can wait in the lobby and watch TV.

My reports for emergencies were brief and to the point; Age, Chief Complaint, Vitals, treatments given, ETA.

My reports for transports; "PT from "ABC" ED with (enter chief diagnosis from ED Doc) vitals stable no change ETA". I often thought why we even needed to give a report for inter-facility transports when the receiving doc already talked with the sending ER Doc and got a report on the patient, but got yelled at quite a few times by Nurses and Docs for not reporting the events of the trip and advising them of our ETA so they can prepare for them...sigh...guess the hospitals up here by me still like to play with the radio and feel important. I would use my cell phone if it were up to me and just call the receiving unit/nurse to advise of our trip and ETA.

I HATED the long winded reports I heard some of our weekend-warrior EMT's in my county give, they would literally need to start their report about 20 minutes out so they had time to talk..."PT felt sick to stomache last week, took Pepto with no relief, ate some beans, felt better, then felt sick again, vomitedX3 and called us, history of heart and stomache illness and poor eating habits, sweaty, laying supine, SPO2 98% room air, secondary survey negative for injury or signs of illness, I went to the opera last week and enjoyed it, have patient on oxygen even though his SPO2 was high just as precaution, carried patient to ambulance with stair chair, my back hurts now as result, no other complaints, have patient legs elevated...just in case, ETA about.....oh.....(hey jimmy, where are we? How far out?)...uhhh...about 10 (NO 15!!) oh, make that 15 minutes out do you require any more information on the patient...never mind I see you now through the window."

All my prayers to him and his family on a speedy FULL recovery. God bless them all.

I thought for sure this one would have been brought up already and was shocked to see it not mentioned;

I loved the one where the woman called 911 because they got her order wrong at the drive through and she kept arguing with the dispatcher that it's wrong they couldnt get her order right and she is a busy mother who needed to get dinner for her kids while on their way to soccer and they got the order wrong and she wants a police officer to take a report and the dispatcher actually got mad and told her 911 is for emergencies, she isnt going to send a unit over because her burgers were wrong...classic call that I thought everyone would remember!! The woman refused to enter the restaurant to complain and get another burger to replace it but she would sit in the parking lot on the phone with 911 for an hour trying to get PD to respond and "Issue Justice" for her burgers...LOL

The first one is not a call, but related to the 9/11 experiences being shared by some. I was not able to make it to the city that day, we were mobilizing a task force of fire and ems from my county to respond on the NYS mutual aid response system but were cancelled last minute due to all the career and volunteer firefighters that just showed up without notice. SO instead of turning them around they put them to work and had us stand-by.

But a week later, a local church had a memorial service for those lost that day and invited all of the FD's, EMS and Police agencies to attend. We were car pooling to the event and there were 7 of us in uniform standing in the open truck bay or our station waiting for more members to show. Across the street from us a couple emerged from their car slowly, and the woman had been crying, she looked at us and started to cry hysterically again. Her husband held her and they walked across the street as if in a funeral procession. They got to us and they both were crying at this point. She finaly told us (through her tears) that they wanted to thank us for helping strangers and doing what we did. That was all they said. They then hugged every one of us, a long hug, saying nothing else to us. Then they turned and walked a few feet away, and turned back and told us "God bless all of you and your families, I will never forget any of you again..." and they went back to their car....None of us talked, we just sat there dumbfounded until we finaly got up and piled into two cars and went to the ceremony, a little more somber then we were already, and the chief and 2 of us were even tearing up a bit.

One is more funny then serious; I went to a structure fire in my past department with my father. We arrived on scene in the first due engine to find it fully involved on the first and second floors with smoke pumping from the basement doors. I remember stretching a 2 1/2" line and was getting ready for water when i heard barking from the basement. I yelled to my father and the Lieutenant on scene to grab a tool and ran over to the door, it was locked on the inside. My father had a halligan and told me to cover him with the line. He forced the door open and quicker then either of us could react 5 dogs of various size raced out and ALL latched on to my fathers bunker pant leg, snarling and growling. I froze and didnt know what to do first when my father started Screaming "SHOOT THEM!!! SHOOT THE LITTLE BASTARDS!!!" while he tried to kick at them with his other leg. It was hysterical to watch as the Lt quickly fell to the ground laughing and wailing. I shot them with a quick blast from the line and they all took off into the woods behind the home. Hey...they were alive. We kept an eye out for them the rest of the time there and the owners tried calling to them but I guess they were afraid of their rescuers! They finally emerged from the woods during overhaul and the owners got them in the car ok and took them to the vet. No injuries for the dogs, but my fathers leg and pride...another story!!

My second call as an EMT-CC; It was on the Interstate during a freak ice storm that came out of nowhere. A pickup going 65 lost control on the ice, spun around 360 degrees 2 or 3 times and then slammed head-on into a tractor-trailer behind him that also lost control going 70...driver of the pickup was ejected and rolled 45 yards down the road, his truck looked like an accordian. Driver of the rig was pinned, both legs busted, ribs busted, head injury. I got out of the bus and ran to the guy that was ejected with the trauma bag and he took his last gurgling breath as I knelt next to him with the county paramedic (that just taught my class) with me. We tubed him, the medic did needle chest decompressions, started 3 large bores on him and packaged him up. He ended up flying out in the bird that was called for the rig driver but he was still pinned and being extricated by 2 FD's. 37 minutes later we got the driver out and flew him out on bird #2 that both landed right on the interstate. Both are alive and well today, a little handicapped but still breathing.

Last call to talk about but many more come to mind, its been 24 years...

I went to a house fire, 3rd department called for tanker and manpower. By the time we got there the main fire was knocked, so they had us check for extension. I was walking through the living room joking around with a guy I trained with from another department and I was just taking pictures and stuff off the wall and wrapping them in a blanket from the back of the couch. I grabbed a couple of dozen picture frames from the walls, I couldnt see what they were due to the soot. I took other items off shelves and tucked them in the couch cushions and did other salvage work too. We finished our sweep and came outside (with the blanket wrapped picture frames over my shoulder like santa) and I scanned the front yard for the owners. They were across the street with the neighbors on the lawn so I approached them. I gave them the blanket and told them I grabbed some things for them and protected a bunch of other stuff, and told them where I put it all. The wife looked at some of the frames and started to cry...hysterically...I didnt know if I should hug her or run and hide...then she looked at me and said "These are my wedding pictures of my grandparents, theyr'e very old, and these are my daughters graduation pictures, and this...(holding up a frame)...is my daughters birth certificate with hand and foot prints..." She hugged me and cried. The hubby shook my hand and said thank you about 2 dozen times. THAT, was the best call ever, even though the house was a loss, but their memories were saved. Almost as good as saving a life I guess.

Do you have minimal standard lighting on your vessel, or do you have extra lighting all around it, does your neighbors who dock there boat next to you all have extra lighting above the standard. The problem is there too many people who will not take responsibility for there actions. Too many people are saying the barge needs more lighting. Not implying anyone here has said that, but I don hear many people saying the dude was drunk and should of never been on the water. What the real shame is that some drunk killed a bride to be, and the best man. and chances are he will get a slap on the hand for this. The shame is that he will walk away with minimal time if any at all. The shame is that having a boating license or a drivers license is almost basically like having a license to kill.

You opened it to this discussion when you posted your PS in your first post.

Lets face it calhobs, the real shame in todays world where drunk driving and efforts to prevent it are prevalent is the fact that the others got on the boat with the drunk guy or didnt try and stop him. They all got on that boat, driver included, knowing they were all drinking. It was dangerous, stupid, assinine, and in todays world should never happen after all of the publicity with drunk drivers killing people, drunk teens killing each other in high speed accidents and all the grief that goes with it.

How many times will we have to lose loved ones to drunken driving accidents before we all grow up? Yes it was sad, yes it should have never happened, but I have no further pity for any ahole that gets behind the wheel drunk or any of his dumb friends that get in with them without stoping them or even thinking its dangerous to do so...

Its my life, if I see someone drunk I would rather punch them in the face and grab their keys and have them pissed off at me for a while before I let them get behind the wheel, and if I cant prevent that I will keep everyone else from getting in with them.

Please someone close this thread before this escalates.

Why close this thread? I'm Paid and Volunteer. I'm only speaking in positive reaction towards that outstanding professionalizm of Volunteers on either side of the Hudson. The only reason I did not mention NYPD, Coast Guard,State Police and County is because they are always held to high standards, and so well deserved. Everyone did a professional job. And hope and pray this never happens again.

Ok, I believe what Westchester is saying here (In order to prevent the age old and boring arguments) is that our career brothers and sisters are highly trained and should normally be able to operate at these type of incidents with no trouble because of their training. As volunteers, we do not get the career academy with the basic rescue training all included in one shot, we have to get all of the individual rescue trainings in order to operate at a call like this one. He states that he is proud that some of the volunteers can rise to the level of the career family in both training standards and professionalism in order to operate at a water based search operation like this one, and he is extremely proud to be a part of this group that selflessly dedicate their time with family and hours from work in order to train and respond to these incidents. I see no crack or insult at either the career or volunteer brothers so please keep it that way. For now we will leave it as is but we are watching you...

Keep it on track. Thank you.

Prayers and thoughts to the family and friends of Trooper Martindale, Rest In Peace trooper.

Perfectly shows what the site is all about, great design and concept! I would love a couple of decals when they come out.

Firemoose,

No, is not a joke. Our county says they have very limited hours/money for training. Yes, we have the outreach programs, but there is not nearly enought of them to keep up with the demand (bodies needing training) in the county. This has been brought up in countywide fire district meetings, Battalion meetings, ect. Same story no matter where you go on whatever level.

I have gotten in 12 new members in the past few months in my district due to a great recruting program done both inhouse and by FASNY that want to be/physically can be "interior SCBA wearing, hose weilding, a** kicking FF's" ... I am able to send 2 of them to FFI class due to county rules, which is 2 members per dept per "high demand" class. The other 10 get told, "well, you just have to wait for the next class" That could be several months off, and even then, it may not be non where near local (within a 45 drive one way). So they start to loose interest (and I dont blame them), .. They say to themselves, "You wanted me here, but you cant officially(read as having state certification saying I know what Im doing) train me, so whats the point".. I'd probably walk away also......

Ok, fine. As a district, I will pay (out of my budget for something that the state/county does provide, but its not nearly enough as the demand is for for free) for a state instructor, have them teach the OFPC class to the OFPC standards/doctrine, and would ASSUME that you'd get a state certificate. However, this is not the case. You dont get a state certificiate, you get a "in house" one, which is meaningless outside the confines of the district. If I have my inhouse cert, and I want to take a OFPC taught FF2 class, since I dont have a state issued cert, I cant take FF2.

So as a district, do I pay good money for good training that is meaningless as the state is concerned? What happens when someone gets hurt/killed that had a "inhouse cert" but not a state one? Im sure the lawyers would love that one. It could be a LONG time before I can get my other 10 people thru an outreach class.

Bottom line as a district, I'd pay for the training but the state makes it so I can not do so AND get a state certificate for the training....... So whats a guy to

Thank you for the clarification, and I applaud you on your efforts to bring quality training to your department. You dont see that too often and I respect the hell out of you. I hope you are able to continue the training standards for your department without too much hassle. I wish my department would have the same enthusiasm but it just isnt there, and I thought the new training center would change that but it, just like any new idea was just a quick spark of interest then right back to our old habbits again...

Best of luck with your training brother.

The same argument could be used for in-service training...couldn't it?

In service training is used to supplement whatever certified training you receive and can be tracked using department training sign-in sheets. If you dont have the sign-in sheet with the subject covered in the drill, equipment used and member signatures with an officer in charge, it didnt happen. I know these are easily pencil-whipped, but its about honor and pride, you want to provide a service to the community you need to be responsible enough to train the right way and keep appropriate records. And as always, if I am wrong in this please correct me!

I'd be happy if I could pay a state certified instructor to teach a OFPC class to the standard and then get a state certificiate for it. I"d write the check in a heartbeat.

??? ???

Its NYS Training, everyone gets it either at the academy or through outreach programs in your county scheduled by your fire coordinator, dont you ever have any courses in your county? I dont understand your comment (for real, no jab or insult intended). If its a joke I apologize.

I dont think the outreach classes cost anything other than a registration fee to cover the cost of the instructors salary through OFPC. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

Why wouldn't it carry any weight outside the district if the training was documented that it followed the proper curriculum?

Because it was not given by a certified state fire instructor. Anyone can run around saying that their FF's receive the proper curriculum in training drills in station, but how can you prove it? No file with the state through the instructors credentials, so it doesnt exist.

I accidentally hit the "like" button while trying to reply, sorry!

Nothing is wrong with the response. But should it have required 3 departments? or should each department be able to handle at least an initial attack self-sufficently?

I dont know this area well enough, but from what I read they called for one department for their aerial ladder correct? There are sometimes situations where an extensive mutual aid contract needs to be in place to get the equipment and manpower you need to effectively provide the service the people deserve. They may have called for the third department just for manpower if needed because they knew everyone is hurting during the daytime for manpower? These are all questions that us "back seat drivers" cant answer unless we are members of this department and know first hand. I am just slightly disgusted at all the negative criticism given a department that in my eyes, are being professional enough to know what they can and can't provide in a situation and are smart and professional enough to address those needs ahead of time through an AMA agreement. If it takes 3 departments to do that, so be it, as long as the services are being provided.

Like Bnechis said though this shouldnt be a long term solution but in some cases what can be done to correct a manpower issue? Combining the departments will just take 2 short staffed departments and make it one larger yet still short staffed department. Lets face it, not everyone is pro-consolidation, and if you were to get it approved there would be the certain percentage of members from both departments that would quit as a result of the merger. It may take a few years to build that membership up to a decent level again. So, although a long term solution it may not be, its still a decent, professional solution to provide immediate coverage when needed the most.

Two ways to look at it:

1) A FIRE dept should be able handle a "simple" working fire.

2) the above being said, I give a lot of credit to any dept. that acknowledges (to itself) that it needs help and if this is what it takes, then at least they are making sure that the public and responders have enough responders.

Long term, if this is the way they need to operate, then they should become 1 department. Mutual aid like this is not a long term solution.

Agreed, but not likely from 3 different departments

A perfect example would be to have you google up my county and see what resources we have in the 17 departments we have here. In those 17 departments we have 2 trucks; both 95' rear mount tower ladders located centrally in the county. Not all 17 have actual rescue trucks with hydraulic rescue tools and rescue equipment, I would probably say 10 do (guessing, a lot of them are getting new equipment and moving stuff around lately and I dont have accurate info yet).

For us, we depend on AMA agreements, and we update them annually as needs change. The first year in this department we had 6 interiors, by the end of that year we had 7 more join, and now we are down to 8 currently (2 years later). Manpower fluctuates drastically around here. One year we could more than handle the initial attack on our own until MA arrives, others we desperately need AMA to arrive with us in order to get the initial attack line in operation, and have done so a few times. As officer I have seen a mixed attack team more than once (one of ours and two from AMA department). But this has been normal for years, since long before I moved up here from Long Island. I came from a department who very rarely EVER called for MA to a department that relies on it for a majority of the calls we respond too. Do I agree that its OK to do it that way? No. But in order to get help there fast, what else can we do without years of political BS, arguing over district lines and station locations (for mergers), and what equipment is kept where and who is in charge........Id rather just keep bringing these AMA agreements to the county chiefs meeting every year and review them with our AMA chiefs and sign them over a coffee and a hand shake. Then we can focus our attentions on recruitment and retention efforts, which is also done with other departments in a joint effort.

There was an automatic alarm in Orange County today.

Responding were 3 different fire departments

The district the call was in; an automatic mutual aid district; another district with their ladder standing by in quarters; and a county coordinator. For a residential alarm.

You don't have the manpower to handle an AFA, without excessive mutual aid?

This is kind of a lousy way to look at this response. It may just be my experience in the fire service, but too many of us look at automatic fire alarms as bogus runs, or nothing to worry about. This department may not have enough manpower to handle structure fires and as a result they make sure they have it for fire alarms, because, why would a fire alarm activate usually?? Because of smoke or fire right? Its not always going to be a false alarm. This department would rather be prepared in case it is a fire. Whats wrong with that?

I have to agree with v85 here. The general public is not going to care (or in some cases doesn't have a say) and as long as nobody gets hurt neither will OSHA or the courts. So most departments think they can get away with whatever they want because they're the Fire Department, and nobody tells them what to do.

As with everything else in the fire service, nothing will change until somebody dies.

I used to agree with this but it doesnt teach people anything lasting. Look at 9/11 and the outpooring of support firefighters received for months after it, because of the major loss of life. What about now? Years later? Everyone forgets over time.

And lets look at how many firefighters die because of cancer, yet we still refuse to wear our air masks for every fire, including car fires and overhaul at structure fires? Loosing firefighters doesnt send any message other then grief.

Im fearful of getting any fires in the next few days, our manpower is already thin, with this heat we will drop like flies, (more emphasis on the overweight bunch like myself) but my department doesnt feel the need to have rehab or the ladies bring us refreshments...

Stay safe in this heat gang, watch each other and keep hydrated.