firemoose827

Welcome to New York State

If I am correct THIS is what it should say, yes?

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit I

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

NYS FIREFIGHTER | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Recruit Firefighter Training ( Career Academy) (01-05-0038) or
• Rescue Technician - Basic (01-04-0032) or Rescue Operations (01-04-0029),
• Incident Command System (01-11-0023),
• Basic Wildland Fire Suppression (01-05-0007),
• Inspection of Existing Structures (02-06-0008),
• Standard first aid or equivalent, and
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and
• Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT).

http://www.dhses.ny....ications.cfm#10

New York State does have a Standard. NEW YORK STATE CERTIFICATIONS — generated by the NYS Firefighting and Code Enforcement Personnel Standards and Education Commission.

NYS Certifications recognize the attainment of prescribed levels of training in specific disciplines, through the completion of NYS Fire Training or Code Enforcement training. Certain NYS Certifications are required for career firefighters, Fire Protection Specialists, and Code Enforcement Officials in the State, while others are "voluntary".

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT II | Top of the Page

NYS FIREFIGHTER | Top of the PageDesigned For: All fire service personnel

Required Fire Service Training:

• Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006) or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023) and Fire Behavior and Arson Awareness (01-01-0012),
• Intermediate Firefighter (01-05-0057) or Initial Fire Attack (01-05-0027), and
• Local Rules and Regulations, Policies and Procedures, and Right to Know information.

NYS FIREFIGHTER RECRUIT I | Top of the Page

Designed For: All fire service personnel

Prerequisite: Firefighter Recruit II

Required Fire Service Training:

• Truck Company Operations (01-05-0046) or Ladder Company Operations (01-05-0029),
• Apparatus Operator - Pump (01-05-0005) or Pump Operator (01-05-0037),
• Accident Victim Extrication Training (01-04-0001), and
• Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations (01-09-0071).

Designed For:

All fire service personnel

Prerequisite:

Firefighter Recruit I

Required Fire Service Training:

• Recruit Firefighter Training ( Career Academy)
  (01-05-0038) or
• Rescue Technician - Basic (01-04-0032) or Rescue Operations (01-04-0029),
• Incident Command System (01-11-0023),
• Basic Wildland Fire Suppression (01-05-0007),
• Inspection of Existing Structures (02-06-0008),
• Standard first aid or equivalent, and
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and
• Candidate Physical Ability Test (CPAT).

http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/fire-academy/certifications.cfm#10

I just wanted to ask for clarification here, but it seems to me the Levels are backwords in this quote, shouldnt FF1 be the basic level and FF2 be the advanced level? Yet here it states prerequisite for FF1 is FF2??? Just curious to see if it was a typo.

I am currently a FF2 which I thought was the highest level a volunteer could reach in NYS since they do not have FF3 certification.

This is great information though, and according to this I am only lacking the extra training hours that I lack for the academy, and then Rescue Technician Basic, in order to be a NYS Firefighter. I need to get me CPR back too but thats easy. Thanks for sharing this.

What ever happened to helping your neighbor! Thats what Fire Department personell do. Now you tell me that I have to take FF1, FF2, Fire Attack, pump ops, AVET, EMT, Hose ops, Ladder Opps, Hazmat, and incident safety officer and more to be qualified to join and help my neighbors? Trainings great and I have taken most of it but chose not to become nationally ceritified. But I really joined to help my neighbors and know whats going on around me by being at the critical incidents. Yes there should be standards that departments should strive for but I do not think you can only have the label of firefighter. You will need to have fireground persons, interior firefighters, extrication EMS types, drivers and officers and office staff. So no I do not support a single standard that fire departments should adopt.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.

But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??

OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??

If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.

Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.

Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...

Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.

I just wanted to clarify my position here, I wrote this in the FAST topic and quickly saw how many of you could get confused and call me out on this issue, so allow me to clarify;

I believe there can be two forms of membership in the volunteer service; Firefighters, and "Support Personnel". The firefighters need that standard of training for the whole state, to be on the same page as other firefighters and I believe that we should have to get licensed like EMT's and Paramedics have to, so we have to re-certify every 5 years to keep up to date on old and new skills and demonstrate to an official person that we can still PERFORM those skills AND have the knowledge needed to stay alive, that we didnt forget it or that we actually PAYED ATTENTION during classes. Around here I see it too much; young guys go take every class, YET they are in the back row, no note books or pens, joking around with "buddies", not paying attention and there is NO TEST. At the end you go up and get your pretty piece of cardboard with you name on it and some fancy signatures from the fire administrator and fire coordinator (that means absolutely NOTHING without the "Passed Exam" in the upper corner) and go back to your station and start to brag about it...

I feel that by having to pass both a written exam and practical exam, supervised by state officials from the fire service, in order to receive a "Firefighter I" License (Like a NYS EMT Card but for Firefighter I, II, III, Fire Officer I, II,III, and Haz-Mat Tech I, II, III) it would force these younger guys to pay attention and actually learn, and by re-certifying every five years its not just a get the certificate and throw it out and forget it type thing anymore, you need to stay on top of things, read articles, attend other classes so you can pass the re-cert tests. Thats what the volunteer fire service needs.

As far as "Support Personnel", they can be like the old "Fire Patrol" units. They can support exterior ops like hose lays, drafting, ladder positioning, rehab areas, staging areas and then later assist with salvage operations and re-packing the hose and cleaning tools so the exhausted firefighters can take time to re-charge. Or like I mentioned in my quote, assist with shelters and other support functions like fund raisers and fire prevention activities.

NFPA 1001 is the industry standard. Period. That's the legal standard you're going to be held to in court when something happens.

Objective certification testing would eliminate the ability of departments to "fake it."

If NYS can pass a gun control law against the wishes of almost every elected Sheriff in the state, I don't see why they can't pass a law setting NFPA Firefighter 1 as the minimum standard for all Firefighters against the wishes of every elected Fire Chief.

This is the best, most direct and precise way to describe it. Just the way I feel. It shouldnt be that difficult to have certification tests and if you dont have it on file you dont fight fire. You just need honorable, trained and experienced leaders to enforce it. If you have a chief that got to the position by "skating" by with only essentials of firemanship that he took 30 years ago and no other training than yes, he wont support the new requirements because then he wont be approved.

THATS why cheifs and officers refuse to accept changes, improvements and new laws in the fire service (atleast the volunteer side anyway because 95% of volunteer departments either dont have or dont enforce job requirements for the position of officer, just any warm body can take the job). They refuse to support anything that will make them and their "lack of training" look bad. That and they will loose their authority...and the pretty white hats and blinky red lights and the cool radio to play with...

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. What happens when your "drivers" or "exterior guys' who "don't want to or cannot be interior firefighters" are outside a building and one of the "interior" firefighters calls a mayday? My theory is that one of three things will happen:

1. They will attempt a rescue without the proper training, equipment, or experience and become victims themselves, or

2. They will stand-by while additional "firefighters" respond to perform the rescue and precious time is lost, or

3. The cops will attempt the rescue and that thread has already run its course. (If you can't tell, this is sarcasm and you should only respond to points 1 or 2).

As long as there is no clear standard for firefighter, we are going to have these arguments and the rift between trained (career or volunteer) and untrained (only volunteer because NYS law requires career FF to be fully-qualified interior trained) is going to exist.

Just out of curiosity, does a driver or an "exterior only 'firefighter'" get the same LOSAP benefits as the guy who straps on a pack and crawls down that smoke filled hallway?

1) To answer your first part simply; its called leadership. If your IC allows these drivers and "exterior" people to lead a rescue there are more issues in your department then you know. IC is set up for a reason, make them do their jobs better and these exterior ops guys wont be charging in the to "rescue".

Before I continue, I agree with you 100% about the training standards needing to be the same across the state, if your title says "Firefighter" then you should have all the necessary training, and the right amount and type of training, to back that up.

In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.

As far as "Firefighters", hands down 100% without-a-doubt agree that we NEED the same training across the board. I would have loved to have taken the career academy when I first started out 24 years ago, but I made due. I took every and all training classes that came to my county, and even traveled to the fire academy in Montaur Falls a dozen times for good training. There are several courses I have taken 2-3 times already, and 1 or 2 that I have taken 4 times or more to refresh. I continue to train as well and will not stop, even though I am assistant chief. Just because I wear a white hat now doesnt mean I wont be needed to stretch and initial attack line, or do the primary search, or vent for the attack team. I will still be ready, and continue to train until I am old a frail, and will have to be forced to stop.

Irene Gremmert ....

I corrected the original post to reflect the real spelling of her name, as well as some of the responses out of respect for her.

It was the spelling given to us by a report, so let me know if this is the correct spelling please.

May you rest in peace Irene, you are no longer in pain or discomfort...go with god now.

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.

Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.

My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.

But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

How about adding FF Safety and Survival to FF 1 and make everyone interior!

Train for the worst not just what it is "fun".

Not sure what you are implying here but we do train for the worst. We, just like everyone, have our members who only want the glory and front page pictures, but there are a lot of us that take training when offered and do it so we can help, not to get attention.

I agree with you though, training should be taken more seriously and not just when its "fun".

Congratulations Port Chester Post 700.

Rest in Peace. May god bless those families and friends who lost their loved ones and be with them in their time of grief. Prayers to everyone.

FAST or RIT is not designed to be a function handled by a specialized unit or group. It is essential that every firefighter be trained in all facets of firefighter rescue. Often incidents that cause firefighters to require emergency rescue, occur early in the incident (well before a county team or specialized team from a mutual aid department can gather a crew and respond). This means that the rescue of the downed or trapped firefighter(s) will have to be initiated by the firefighters who are already on the scene if they are to have a chance at a good outcome.

Everyone is required to take "Firefighter Safety and Survival" in my area to be an interior. When they go through the FF I course they get a look at our FAST first hand and see what they do to rescue someone. There is also regular FAST courses as well. I agree about that, everyone should have the training so you are all on the same page. Routine trainings on Mayday calls and what to do when one is called should also be done. I ask people all the time during drills what would happen if...and 7 times out of ten they dont mention calling a Mayday, they just try to fix the problem. We are working on that issue through training with the FAST at our new training facility.

Our county team trains with departments regularly, and is required for all Firefighter I courses when they go to the training center. They are also required to be present for all live fire excercises at the training center.

I will be planning a drill for them to attend with our department soon I hope, because not too many of our people are familiar with their techniques and what is expected of us as a department when they actually go to work on a scene.

Im in the State EOC, looking at other pictures, its pretty bad. My county sent SEFU's to Herkimer county to assist. Flooding is surpassing major mark.

Would you require committee members to be close, or will/could this be handled over the phone/computer? I would help any way I could but live 3 hours away.

Let me know, thanks!

Congrats Rob! Im here to help in any way, this site has been a great thing for a lot of the members including me, allowed me to make lots of connections and networks, and even make a few friends.

Good luck to you in your new position.

Moose

AFS. How about you have a fire and now a large crowd of people or even a small crowd. Plenty of people always want to get up close and see. Especially in today's world of cell phone cameras. Even if there is not a fire you just never know what can happen or pop up. It doesn't hurt to send both. I am a little offended by your statement and if you are a dispatcher I would think you would have some common sense of why PD should go. I have stated clearly my stance on this topic that its an FD job and they go in but I still feel I am needed and have been several cases at a fire scene I was. Like I said that one dingbat with a camera standing right next to the engine as FD is trying to grab a line or the tool and is in the way. Let me take care of that that's why I am there.

I agree, police are needed for all scenes. In my old department the village cops responded to all of our calls in the village, EMS and Fire. One or two were also volunteers themselves and could get on scene and grab that ACCURATE information you talked about. For EMS calls they make sure the scene is safe, no matter what we were called for, and help us with equipment and the stretcher, and help carry them to the rig and on a few occaissions they even went to the ER and helped us get the larger pt's out of the rig too.

For fires they blocked off the road and kept bystanders out, even helped us hit a plug every now and then too and stretch supply lines. I have no issue with them responding at all. Like we all mentioned, its the first responder that doesnt THINK and apply their TRAINING and puts themselves in unnecessary danger that we are talking about; Fire, EMS or LEO.

A Chief at 20. He must have been a great firefighter. Of course he set a great example for the fellow firemen by drinking then responding to call. That's why kids cant be Officers. They don't have the brains yet to deal with these things. I'm guessing that part were they clear it from his record if he does a stint in a quickie rehab will go over real well with people.

That makes me sick too...I have heard hundreds (no exageration) of young firefighters argue that with todays training it makes them equipped to be officer at an early stage...I still say BULL &^*%!!! This just proves my point; they lack the maturity and real life experience to properly lead a fire department or even a company. They may be well trained, yes, granted...BUT...You still need to take that training and apply it in the field to get real life experience, and you MATURE as a result of that experience. To read this article and see that his excuse was "Well company officers and members have been drinking at parades for a long time now and no officer or official have done anything about it..." makes me sick.

1. He KNEW about the problem and did nothing about it as one of the chiefs.
2. He participated in the infraction himself being drunk behind the wheel, putting him, his FF's, and if his family or someone elses family was with them as well all in jeopardy.

You need mature people with experience in the field and lots of training to properly lead a department as chief. Lieutenant...Maybe a younger person (21-25) can take that spot and learn from his/her captains and chiefs and gain some insight to properly run a dept, but any chief spot? That should be someone in the dept for over 20 years, knows the equipment, knows the district blind folded, knows the people, has tons of training and field tested experience on the nozzle or on the roof or crawling down that hallway with a high level of MATURITY to lead.

Luckily, no one was seriously injured or killed...this time. He injured one of his men (hopefully not out of work on disability or anything), and probably destroyed the truck wasting tons of taxpayers money to either repair or replace it. He put his district in danger because now they are down by one truck that they would normally depend on and have to rely on mutual aid. He should have the white hat taken away, and given a hot pink helmet with a bunch of AA stickers and 12-step program stickers on it for a year and have his driving priveledges permenantly taken away. Maybe that will give him the maturity he NEEDED when he took the office.

Sorry...im done now...and I respectfully dont want to hear any younger member say anything to me like "But there are some of us that are mature..." please...just respect my opinion because you will not change it until I see a young chief work miracles...then maybe we can talk...

Truckies VS. Engine....

I can beat you all on this one, I happen to go both ways...

Your not a fireman until you are an "Iron Man Firefighter" and have to do both jobs at a moments notice.

Stay Safe out there...(truckies)...

Your killing me here Moose! I said I was done and you pulled me back in!

Your second sentence says it all. I like to think that most of the topics I post will and should be thought about and deciphered. Almost like the 24 hour rule replying to some touchy email received. Step back, read, re-read and think. It just amazes me that one person who is in a supervisory role here thinks that (A) I along with all FD members dislike cops. Absurd and totally out of line. ( B ) it is ok to be DISPATCHED to a call that you are not trained or suited for. I too am in a supervisory role and have had plenty of discussions with my superiors over calls I do not feel my men were prepared for. I know when I accepted the promotion that I also accepted the fact that I will do what it takes to return my Brothers home the next morning the same way they showed up the morning before.

Our Job as well as I would say the majority of FD's have written SOP's for all calls we respond to. Why do we have written SOP's? The FD works as a team to mitigate any and all calls we respond to. Wether you are first due truck ( forcible entry, fire floor and OV ) to second truck ( forcible entry, floor above and coordinated ventilation for the engines ) first engine ( line placement ) second engine ( water source, backup first line ) third engine ( second handline to back up ) and so on down the line.

What could a PD SOP dictate for the first due officer to a job? Do they even have an SOP or are they flying by the seat of their pants? I mean really? Do you honestly believe we are "attacking " the law enforcement community here?

I never said anyone here was attacking the LE Community. I quoted you because you used the term vile. I was addressing what I thought to be a topic wide thought that we were singling out LEO's, which is why I clearly stated we were concerned with ALL first responders that make poor decisions. Maybe you should re-read my post???

Im all for ALL first responders.

As a "supervisory position" i too look to make sure all of us come home after every call. I admit it though, I am new to the chiefs position and would welcome any and all advice you ahve for me in that area. I respect your experience and training.

My thoughts here...simply put; ALL first responders (FD, PD, EMS) that arrive on scene first need to be aware of ALL of the dangers, including the new ones like I mentioned in my post. Too many of us die recently due to someone else trying to take their own lives, or trying to get a high, or simply because they are pissed at the world but dont have the courage to end it on their own so they get a gun and hope the LEO's will shoot them...its a sad world we live in. But you dont have to worry about me, Im on OUR side here and not singling any one out, just concerned for the recent events and how some first responders are still acting dangerously without applying their training and knowledge.

Stay Safe out there.

Given that a very quick Internet search also yields a number of stories regarding actions by off-duty FF's that have never been addressed on this Board, I think there must be more to the story.

I mean, not a single one of those stories, (including two notable local stories, one from Westchester and one from NYC) have made it to EMTBravo, have they?

I loathe to assume that certain parties have such vile for the rare moment that LEO's get positive accolades, but, it's starting to seem pretty clear.

What else can explain this apparent double standard?

I have no "vile" towords any police officer, and if there is a situation that a LEO deserves accolades Im one of the people doing it. You seem to be missing one point yourself...we are concerned for the welfare of ANY first responder that takes it upon themselves to enter an IDLH atmosphere without any information (such as the CO incident). With all of the talk about "chemical assisted suicides", and drug labs with deadly gasses...WHAT would make someone with no airway protection enter in to a situation like that? Regardless of known life hazards?? You could instantly drop dead of exposure if you tried to run into a chemical suicide or drug lab gone bad situation. There was a situation in NY not too long ago where EMS were dispatched to a "Man Down" call. When they arrived the wife was just outside the closed front door saying her husband is on the floor just inside the door and she doesnt know any other way in to get to him...wait, you live there, and dont know any other way in??? That should have stopped EMS there but they forced the door/victim open enough to get to him and 2 medics dropped dead from fumes coming from an illegal drug lab in the living room. The wife knew this and thats why she was not trying to get to her husband.

Point in case- we dont know what is going on inside the house in situations like this; could be just CO, could be a mass chemical suicide, could be a group of druggies fallen victim to their own drug lab, could be ANYTHING.

Police have vests, guns, tazers and other things to handle perps.

Firefighters have gear, air packs, and other tools to fight fires and make rescues.

A TRAINED police officer should be able to look at all the info, the area they are responding to, and have enough sense to say "Ok, I will give FD a few minutes to get here and see where I am at at that point". Just like if I roll up to my bank, look throught he window and see a masked man holding a gun to the tellers head, I will have enough sense to say "Ok, Im going to hold all these people out of the bank and call PD and wait for them to charge in there."

There are situations where it is necessary for us to make split second decisions, like Seth mentioned about the PD arriving on scene of a house fire, kids trapped and FD 15 minutes out...If it were me I would most certainly run in and ATTEMPT to make a rescue any way I could, I am human, all training and uniforms and job titles asside...if I am on scene and other humans are in trouble I will want to help.

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

No one here hates cops. I believe everyone here was confused over your initial post and what your intent was exactly. I myself saw this post when no one had answered yet and I waited for others to respond to see if they knew what you were asking, or wanted to discuss. Just sayin.

The "NO LONGER ACTIVE" thing cracks me up. Seems legit, right?

Yah but the "Disabled" line fits him perfectly...mentally disabled...

Guys hate to burst your bubble but the portable version is deemed an "assault rifle" in NYS and thus illegal... It has a scary looking pistol grip... Can anyone see a bayonnet lug on there?

Gotta admit, with this picture, it looks like an assault rifle. Anyone got any good info for the old piercing nozzle then??? LOL

Good idea on paper, until we end up steaming a victim to death because we just "lanced" it from the outside without conducting a search of the building first. Even for small departments with minimum manpower, there's no way around the need for a coordinated fire attack.

Good point. But I speak from "Small Town USA" where everyone knows everybody. I am used to rolling up to a house fire and knowing right away, either from the people living there or neighbors, that everyone is out, not home, on vacation etc etc. We dont have vagrant issues or squatters, we can do a quick search relatively quickly too in most of our typical "ranch" style houses through windows and doors and using our TIC. I was merely throwing it out for discussion. The age old "Another tool in the tool box when used appropriately" discussion.

Do some research before you jump on the pyrolance bandwagon. The guy in the infomercial sounds a lot like an old film by Lloyd Layman touting the water absorption rate of fog lines. That started the greatest debate ever among fire people. And, I think it was Hahn who had a 700psi fog system for brush fires and places without adequate water supplies.

All these items (High pressure systems, Fog lines, and now Pyrolance) work well in confined spaces because the steam doesn't leave the space and is able to absorb its full amount of btu's.

All these boons to the fire service last a little while and then become museum pieces, never to be used again.

Only a combination of two things has consistently proven itself to be an effective firefighting system over the course of time: Firefighters and Water.

The powers that be are already taking away our firefighters. Watch out boys, the next thing they will want to get rid of are our fire hydrants, selling them for scrap.

I agree with what you say chief, but I also believe that with the fire service growing so rapidly, and new innovations and techniques being born daily, the "older" tools get forgotten because of the newer tools. Officers forget that they are still in the tool box.

I read a great article recently, and I just spent the past 30 minutes looking for it on countless magazine web sites but was unable to locate it unfortunately. It was a great piece on the re-invention of older tools, and the writer discussed specifically the use of the cellar nozzle, piercing nozzle and the hose clamp. Simple, older tools that have been "forgotten" about, yet they can still play a major role in today's fire scenes with a little imagination and creativity.

I was seriously thinking about using the piercing nozzle a lot more for different applications in my area.

The cellar nozzle is still a great oldie, and can be used for more then cellar fires.

I believe this Pyrolance is worth a good look, maybe even a demo at the station, but would never go into any major purchase without looking at it from every angle first and discussing it with members and mutual aid departments as well. Still just a good idea to look at for my situation; large coverage area, no municipal water source, a few large ponds scattered over the area with only 2 working dry hydrants to use, and very minimal manpower for the initial attack. This tool could help us if used the right way, and that comes with training and practical use.

Very good points though and I agree.