AFS1970

Got this on FB and found it to be one of the best troop commercials I've ever seen...and recognition that's long overdue if you ask me.

Thanks to all who serve and all who have served


http://americanmilitarynews.com/2014...xpected-twist/

This really isn't about drinking in the firehouse. It is about drinking responsibly.
I have written before about a visit to a friend's FD in another state. He took me into his rec room which had a bar. I asked about it because the station I was a member of at the time did not have such a thing. He showed me the glass covering the bottles, the dual locks securing the glass. He told me how one key belonged to the line officers and the other to the bar committee,the bar committee all had to be certified bartenders which involved a class on when to cut people off. Both had to be present to unlock the bar. They had a strict no drinking and responding rule, and if you did and were caught the line officer who failed to stop you was also in trouble. This place managed to keep the tradition and add some responsibility.
Many years ago when I took Fire Officer 1, one of our scenarios was a call comes in, you are in the station with some other FF's. As you are about to leave, another FF responding from elsewhere comes in the station and is visibly intoxicated. What do you do? Note that in this scenario there has been no drinking in the station, you are the only officer present, the crew is short and this firefighter if allowed would bring you up to a full crew. Granted it is designed as a no win situation, and I can tell you that no matter what answer each group gave the instructor showed us how there would be dire consequences, but the point is not all drinking has to happen at the station for it to be irresponsible.
As an aside, I am glad the judges have rules that volunteers are in fact people. However I also wish that they had extrapolated from those statements that volunteers are in fact firefighters.

The judges are reviewing the quotes to see just what was said...the air is thick with anticipation of their decision, there's alot riding on the outcome. This could finally put the debate of paid vs volunteer to rest....
OK looks like they've reached a decision......let's get back to the ring for the English Professor's call....
"After reviewing the quotes, we have reached a decision...
Actually what was said is "people who work (or volunteer)"...people being the noun (i.e. who) and work or volunteer being the verb (i.e what they are doing), so this round goes to dave0820"!!
So there you have it folks, in an unexpected 3 to 2 call, the judges have confirmed that volunteers ARE people. Wow what drama.............

It's a matter of want vs. need. If there aren't any buildings in your district over 2 stories you may not need a 110 foot tower ladder, but you want it! Practicality is the answer. Seth originally asked if a department who pieced together a $1 beater should replace it with a new one for $400,000. I ask why? Can you justify a $400,000 purchase? Ask yourself if the equipment on this rig can be moved to another. Can we downsize the rig? Can we go pre-owned? Do we even need it? All things that need to be considered when replacing any vehicle.

Even if you get around the RLS issue, the crews that respond are often regional and not coming from a nearby location. My city is relatively lucky in that we have a CL&P (Connecticut Light & Power) facility in town, but still the people coming for the trucks don't always live in town. One night we got a call from a foreman who wanted an escort down I95 as he was coming from several towns away. We referred him to the state police but in all reality the traffic was so bad on the highway that they were not going to be able to help him that much.
A few years ago I was sent to a possible transformer "explosion", when we got there the lights were on in the neighborhood. As this was an odd intersection where 3 fire districts met, we decided to check the other two areas to determine who to call and we did find a power outage. As we were about to call for the other district and the power company a CL&P truck pulled up and the driver told us we could free up. When I asked how he got there so fast he said he lived across from the transformer, heard it pop and got up went and picked up a truck and came back to reset the power in his neighborhood.

I applaud NYPD for taking this step. As overdue as it it, they might be one of the few departments with a formal response SOP for this type of situation. Far too many agencies take this for granted.
I took a class years ago that was designed for Fire & EMS personnel responding into crime scenes, that basically was a guide on how to not screw up evidence. From that I came away thinking that there should be a basic awareness level class about each service that the other services should take. PD often calls FD the Evidence Eradication Team and FD often calls PD Blue Canaries. Think about the last MVA scene you were on and how chaotic it was, let alone a structure fire or major assault. We should all be basically aware of what each other do and more to the point what we are limited in doing ourselves.
I would also include EMS in this, as even with FD being EMT's most of the time there are always new things coming out, especially in ALS that we often don't get to hear about. Despite there being a large number of EMS personnel with some FD experience there is still the problem with canceling incoming units without evaluating their actual need. So I guess there should be three classes and everyone should take two of them.

Why wouldn't a dispatcher send PD to these kind of calls, that makes you think you have to inform the dispatcher on how he or she should do his job? Perhaps, next time you advise that you have fire blowing from the 2nd floor window, should we ask "well are you putting water on it?"

Reposting something I put on another forum about this topic with a few additions.
While they certainly acted outside their scope of training and equipment, the NYPD Housing Bureau environment isn't like anything we have here in CT. Unless I'm mistaken, most NYPD Housing beats cover a few buildings, those floors are where they patrol. Its not like they flew halfway across Brooklyn, parked their car in front of the hydrant and ran up, these Officers spend their whole shifts in these high-rises. Was taking the elevator a poor decision? I think the answer to that is obvious. But there's another issue at play here.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the fire service who are quick to excoriate a couple of Police Officers trying to do something to help the people in their beat, but some of those same people have nothing negative to say when Bubba rolls the tanker over doing 90MPH to an Activated Fire Alarm and neither him nor the guy in the right seat were wearing seat-belts. And why not? Because its out of respect for the families and the department affected.

My point is, members of our service have made our share of missteps, mistakes and/or plain old bad decisions from time to time, but we don't drag people through the mud. We wait until we know the facts and we show respect for those trying to bury their lost before we start picking things apart. Why don't P.O.s Guerra and Rodriguez get the same courtesy? We're on the same team here, folks.

As someone else stated, the NYPD Commissioner has identified a training gap and has stated publicly that they are going to work to improve it to prevent further injuries or Line of Duty Deaths. Which is more than some Fire Departments can say...

My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Guerra's family and his Brothers and Sisters in the NYPD. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for Officer Rodriguez as well.

Whatever happened to being discreet? OK, have your cooler of beers for after, although I would much rather go to whatever event is being held where you can be with everyone else and not be isolationist and then complain about the lack of brotherhood. However carrying a case of beer past the church is downright obscene. Here is a radical idea, how about remembering that you are attending a funeral and actually attend it. Even if the church if full they usually have speakers set up. If you went to a non fire service funeral, would it be acceptable to stand there while the family entered, then pop off to the pub or the parking lot, then be there when the family leaves?
I can remember attending the national memorial service in Maryland and getting there to find one member did not bring a tie, because they didn't like to wear them normally so thought it would be OK to not wear one when serving as part of a color guard. Needless to say a quick trip to the store across the street and that member had a tie. I used to think that we had lost an understanding of traditions in the fire service, but i don't think that is it. New kids may not realize that pike poles were once a fishing tool, but I fail to see how you can not realize that a funeral, especially a LODD funeral is a place for reverence.
Oh and as for the kid sitting on the memorial, after his injuries healed, I would personally like to see him thrown out of the department. I am not sure there is much we can do to fix that kind of stupidity, treating any monument like that is something that has to be learned at a young age.

This is exactly the time for Monday morning quarterbacking, because if we wait for Tuesday, it might be too late. Sadly we have to learn from past experiences, especially the deadly ones, because those are the ones we remember the most.
As for the fact that the officers are dispatched to the fire, yes this is so that they can perform police functions there. When we send EMS to an assault call it is not for investigation and apprehension, it is for patient treatment. That being said my fellow dispatchers need to understand when to send and not send certain agencies there, because the need to do something is always present in public safety personnel, it is why we do what we do. Nobody here became a police officer, firefighter, Paramedic to not respond to calls. No amount of training and no SOP will keep people from trying to help.
In my city when a call comes in for a structure fire, it is sent to both he fire and police dispatchers. Sometimes I think it is almost a race to see who can dispatch it first. When I am working the police console, I generally try and wait until I hear the FD is en-route. We all know the jokes about the first PD unit blocking the hydrant, but it is sadly accidentally true. When I was a VFF I went to a fire in another district, it was a multiple alarm. We get to the street the fire is on, which was a small residential street with little to any traffic problem, and found an unattended police car blocking the road. Thankfully it was running and unlocked because one of our guys had to move it so we could get to the building. I don't think the PO thought he was hampering operations, he thought he was keeping onlookers away, although he then walked up a few hundred feet to look at the fire.
I realize that we all have to work within our SOP's, but I have to wonder if we couldn't be more aware of certain situations and realize that we can help keep each other safe by better defining what we do. Could these officers have been sent to the building exterior to provide intelligence? Sure, and could that report of smoke from windows been relayed to the FD, sure. Might it have lead the FD to respond to what was otherwise a small fire, sure but I would rather have a full assignment for a mattress fire than a LODD.
As for medals and promotions, someone once told me that nobody ever gets a medal for following the rules.
EDIT: I should say that the police are not the only ones guilty of failing to stage. I dispatched a call for a Psych case one night. In this district at the time that got an Ambulance and an Engine along with the police. I told the FD & EMS to stage. After a while of not hearing any updates the Captain on the Engine called in and asked on the air if he could clear up. I told him to stand by and I would see if PD still needed EMS. His reply was they probably do I can see the patient being loaded into the ambulance from the staging point. EMS had decided they knew better and gone in. I called the EMS supervisor about this, and was told that his medics knew all about scene safety and were well qualified to decide if they needed to stage or not. A quote like that could someday become a eulogy.

I know we have been down this road before and it just would not sit right if we don't bring it up again. When I respond to a call and I am advised by 60 Control to stage away till PD arrives I do just that. I can tell you that for every shooting, stabbing and assault call I respond to I ask if PD in en route. I also advise that we will stage away until clear to enter the scene. Do I want to help someone in distress? Yes I do. Do I want to be part of the action? Yes I do. Do I want to injure or kill one of my Brothers under my supervision and not return them home the same way they came to work. NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! Do we need to get on the radio to advise PD to stage away till our arrival? 2 Members of Public Safety are in critical condition for the simple fact that :
#1 They are not dressed in proper fire gear
#2 They are not wearing SCBA
#3 They most likely do not have elevator keys and or don't know how to control an elevator in a fire situation
#4 They are acting out of the scope of their job description
Does wearing a uniform transform us into something we are not? We tell civilians to vacate and do not return for valuables or anything else for that matter. When does the risk vs reward decision come into play? Do we really need to do another agency's job?
For everyone who gets his/her panties in a bunch over this post get over it! Hold a picture tight of your loved ones everyday and ask yourself one thing. Is this the smartest thing I am about to do?
I will say a prayer for the 2 NYPD members and I hope for a speedy and healthy recovery

Kid should go down for murder

it is sad that there has to be a thread about proper etiquette at Firefighter Funerals, members who have been in for 20 years or 2 years you think they would be able to keep it professional for a few hours. We recently buried one of our own senior members and I was surprised at the amount of guys who showed up without ties, wrong insignia, no gloves or no mourning bands. If you cant wear the proper uniform then wear a suit instead. Think to yourself would the guy your honoring show up to your funeral with his uniform all jacked up.

Whatever happened to being discreet? OK, have your cooler of beers for after, although I would much rather go to whatever event is being held where you can be with everyone else and not be isolationist and then complain about the lack of brotherhood. However carrying a case of beer past the church is downright obscene. Here is a radical idea, how about remembering that you are attending a funeral and actually attend it. Even if the church if full they usually have speakers set up. If you went to a non fire service funeral, would it be acceptable to stand there while the family entered, then pop off to the pub or the parking lot, then be there when the family leaves?
I can remember attending the national memorial service in Maryland and getting there to find one member did not bring a tie, because they didn't like to wear them normally so thought it would be OK to not wear one when serving as part of a color guard. Needless to say a quick trip to the store across the street and that member had a tie. I used to think that we had lost an understanding of traditions in the fire service, but i don't think that is it. New kids may not realize that pike poles were once a fishing tool, but I fail to see how you can not realize that a funeral, especially a LODD funeral is a place for reverence.
Oh and as for the kid sitting on the memorial, after his injuries healed, I would personally like to see him thrown out of the department. I am not sure there is much we can do to fix that kind of stupidity, treating any monument like that is something that has to be learned at a young age.

I'm not sure that's the right answer, in fact I'm sure it isn't. Too often we make blanket policies to address the stupidity of a small sample. If out of town Brother's truly want to pay their respects, the sea of uniformed firefighters can be quite moving. I can tell you the day (in 2000) we marched through Worcester it was a moment I'll never forget, it still send shivers up my spine to remember how the second largest city in New England could be reduced to only the sound of footsteps as Brothers from across this country and further marched to the Centrum. Letting a few clowns disassemble something that's larger than any individual, any one FD or even a country would be a damn shame.
It needs to be said to all by their own bosses that if you act inappropriately while in uniform (regardless of who paid for it) then you will be held accountable for "duties unbecoming of a member". can we not instill a minimum level of respect for other Brother's? This is the epitome of Brotherhood just being a slogan that goes along with a window decal or uniform. It is up to our own members to ensure the new guys coming on understand the true meaning of respect and Brotherhood and up to the bosses to ensure their members represent them in a manner that makes the department proud.

If you don't say something to them, you are not helping anything. I say something to the tool bags wearing sunglasses, and the party ribbons on their lapel. I don't give a $h1T if someone gets offended.

Sadly much of the fire service etiquette seems to be slowly fading away. And those of us who have been around awhile are to blame. If we look the other way when members act disrespectfully or distastefully then the fault lies with us, the "older guys" who should know better. I more often than not find myself at odds with both the younger members and the admin of my FD, as I always speak up and see to it that the nonsense stops when members Facebook or Twitter or act disrespectfully at solemn or formal occasions. When such situations arise I hear the standard lament, "it's not 1980 anymore, it's a different time, you can't expect guys to act like they did years ago, wah wah wah, blah blah blah. I'm so f><king tired of that lame ass BS excuse. As I see it here's the deal, there is a right way and there is a wrong way to conduct yourself when in uniform and that goes doubly so for when we're present at funerals or other significant events. I think many will agree, but I also think that beyond agreeing we have to act when we see the wrong way happening...if we don't who will. I joined my first FD at 16 and believe me, my friends and I were hellions in the extreme. The older members made it clear what was and what was not acceptable....just as it had been made clear to them before us...and they made sure we learned exactly what that meant. I truly am thankful I had men like that around to show me the way...and sometimes do more than just show...because I came out a better person and a far better fireman for it. No matter how many volumes of the latest new age, progressive, politically correct management theory drivel is shoved down my throat I KNOW that what I learned and how I learned it is what works best and is the right thing. Society might be crumbling all around us and there may not be a helluva lot we can do about it outside our world, but in our world we still have control...so when guys need straightening out it's up to us to do just that. 10, 15, 20 years from now those same guys will be thankful we did

Sadly, I do not think a class on etiquette would have much impact. This situation has more to do with common sense, or the lack of.

I, along with 25 of my Brothers spent 2 days paying our respect to Lt Walsh and FF Kennedy. I have to tell you that there needs to be a class on proper etiquette taught to the younger generation of firefighters. I can't tell you how many members I saw carrying cases of beer on their shoulders walking the streets where our Brother was being celebrated. Guys just walking by the church with 24 on their shoulder. I don't really know if they were career or volley and don't really care who they are affiliated with but their actions disgusted me as well as other New Rochelle Firefighters. If you want to have a few beers between the service and the last drive past the sea of blue please go to a bar. If you want to tailgate and party in front of the civilians like morons please go to a football or baseball game. In front of the church and on peoples lawns is not the place!!!!

Fights or games?

Before I start I need to say I do not condone, agree with or accept what the Chief did as acceptable or appropriate. With that said reading the article it appears that these comments occurred sometime in the past and were brought up as a part of some line of questioning by an attorney for a plaintiff against the district for not being hired. They were actually solicited from a party who had a conversation with the chief. It appears the Chief appologized both personally and publicly when he realized that these conversations caused personal harm. This should be left between the Chief and Finer. As far as the salary Fairview made it's own bed there. Nuff said. Again only my opinion based solely on the information in the article.

Cold, hard statistics are not necessarily cold nor hard. Very often they can be twisted by leaving out categories you don't like or massaging things to get the result you want.
For example, we've all heard that something like 25% of all personal injury auto accidents involve the use of alcohol.
That means that 75% are caused by a******* that are stone cold sober! You don't see any checkpoints to get them off the road.

The irony is, the same departments that always go to the same jobs together, and couldn't function without each other, can't merge with each other and share operation and reduce costs. Mount Vernon isn't the only department that uses mutual aid continuously as a crutch. And maybe creating a joint fire district will take the power away from the Mount Vernon politicians, which may be the only way to save them and the members of MVFD.
And how can MVFD have enough manpower to have a FAST team, especially now that they are down 2 firefighters who are facing felony charges yet still holding spots in the department? But they are probably good at forcible entry and dragging victims. It's funny because it's true.
(I apologize to the MVFD members I offended)

You are partially correct, Communities will never provide adequate staffing because of cost, but it has nothing to do with mutual aid.
Since almost every dept. is not bringing enough manpower to incidents to meet the standards( and in some cases violating state law) even when they are abusing mutual aid your argument holds no water. You claim they will not increase staffing because of mutual aid, but they do not even request enough mutual aid to get to standards. Why are firefighters not complaining about this?
Ok so following your logic, we stop sending mutual aid to community X, because the members don't want it. The municipality still will not increase the staffing (or in VFD communities their are no additional volunteers). This means the members will work harder, with higher personal risk and still no help. Plus the community will be at greater risk at both the incident and the uncovered areas. So how will this fix anything?
My dept. had 199 firefighters 40 years ago, then 187, 186, 180, 170, 168, 166, 160, 154..........And in the last 25 years we had NO increase in mutual aid. But we went from 187 to 154 (with a threat of lower). During that time all the firefighters kept claiming it would get better if we just fought for it.
Everyone of the depts. around us have lost ff's or have been stagnant as call volume increases.
You keep arguing for no mutual aid, but then you also admit that the community will not spend any more $$$$. So failing to help each other only hurts us.

Wrong. Get more members on-scene to get the job done and leave RIT/FAST standing bye.
WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO ACCEPT NOT ENOUGH STAFFING AT FIRES?
While we cant change the on-duty staffing. Their are standards for staffing at incidents. The bosses need to follow them and the unions need to hold their feet to the fire on this. If it means calling every dept. mutual aid then DO IT. But no we then complain that this is abuse. Yes it is, but whats more important is the brothers inside. Maybe if the abuse gets bad enough, the communities will open their eyes and accept change.