AFS1970

There are places in which calls are dispatched to the closest units regardless of response district boundaries, but in a lot of areas in which that happens, the departments have all signed off on doing so and are all dispatched by the same dispatch agency and may even be sharing a common dispatch channel.
 
As for this particular incident, there seems to be insufficient information presented on here to determine if what happened was or wasn't "ok".

so if crossing borders is ok for an incident, yonkers and mt Vernon should be able to go a few blocks into the Bronx  and fdny should be able to go a few blocks north because they were in the area,  and why stop at fires  take in all their ems calls also  might be a cardiac arrest  and save a life. Good communications is what is needed  If I am first due  and I have apparatus from another district already on scene my game plan has to be modified very quickly.  

I know this will rustle the feathers of many, but think about it in terms of police. YES, Police. If a police officer is returning from training in another jurisdiction and comes across an accident, a robbery, or swerving drunk-driver, they will call it in to the either their dispatch or the jurisdiction the call is in and then render appropriate action until the arrival of the appropriate jurisdiction. The same thing would happen if they were near their own town line and saw something happen in the next jurisdiction. The questions are what did you know, when did you know it and what did you do about it? If the answer comes back to being reasonable, then I'm all for acting.
 
As a few have pointed out, the Scarsdale incident isn't very clear as to what happened. Eastchester could have very well been out on their own smoke investigation and come across the fire.  If so, report it to the jurisdiction having authority by common radio frequency or your own dispatch and then render aid in a reasonable manner until the "home team" shows up.
 
As for any incident near a town line, I would expect that if the FDNY were out on a smoke investigation near the Yonkers city line and they came to the Westchester border and saw smoke coming out of a building and some mother out front frantically running around that they would respond and do what they could do to assist until Yonkers showed up. If I were the FDNY Battalion Chief I would initiate operations, possibly make a rescue, and when Yonkers showed up I would go to the first arriving officer and say, "FDNY is on location, we have 2 engines and 1 ladder working. We rescued a child from floor 2. We have 1 line stretched in operation on the 1st floor. This is your city and your incident - you are in-charge, what can we do to help you?" If the Yonkers officer said continue operations and we'll stretch a back-up line I'd appreciate it. Once our troops arrive we'll try to kick you free ASAP" then I'd stay and do what was REASONABLE and respect the Yonkers officer's decision. If (I don't think Yonkers would do this) he said, "This is our fire and get out of our city" then I'd say, "Fine, pack-it up boys and let's hit the road. Good-luck!" 
 
This is not rocket-science. It's about what and when you became aware of something and then what did you do about it and was the action REASONABLE to do. Working together is a wonderful thing!!

Canvass letters are used to judge interest of reachable candidates by departments.  You can still receive correspondence from S.F.D. along with other departments if they are hiring. More than one department at a time can canvass and interview a reachable candidate simultaneously. Not sure if there is an expiration date on a canvass letter. 
 
Keep your resume current , a suit pressed and not ill fitting, and a positive attitude.     
 
Besides rumor and hearsay, no one with direct knowledge is going to post here if a particular department is hiring.  
 
Best of luck. 

That's a great video showing how pre-planning your area before purchasing a rig is always a great idea. I think that while great, most departments don't have the man power to operate the tiller. In Westchester, most are lucky to get one guy on the rig. Does the Officer drive the front or the back? It sucks to bring up staffing but its the hard truth when it comes to these apparatus.

While certainly not ideal, a competent and experienced crew of two arriving quickly can have a positive effect on many incidents rather than a unit with more staffing arriving a few or several minutes later.
 
I've spent the majority of my career (the paid part) working on an engine staffed with only 2.  We've been able to have 3 at times over the last few years.  Several years ago now, we had a 2 man crew arrive first at a working fire and execute a ladder rescue of a trapped victim prior to arrival of other units.  That gentleman knows what the point would be.  You'd be surprised at what we've accomplished at some incidents. 

I understand that mutual aid plans around the county (heck, around the state) are either broken or just strange, but there are some good plans out there.  The airport has an overkill plan for an Alert 1 (Light General Aviation Aircraft, generally carrying 4-6 souls): 3 engines, 1 ladder, 2 rescues, 3 ambulances, and 1 tanker, all from the overlapping districts surrounding the aiport.
 
I only point this out because there is a way to make mutual aid work.  It involves working with your neighboring departments and determining what you can do for each other in a myriad of incidents.  Department A has a heavy rescue, Department B has a boat, Department C has a tower ladder....you get the picture.  If you plan your "what if" moments appropriately, you won't get the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" from everyone else, AND you get the job done!  The above airport response for light GA is because some serious sh#t can happen with what seemingly could be a simple crash but is actually something quite significant (think a single engine Cessna rolls off the end of the runway and hits a fuel truck filled with 9,000 gallons of JetA).  I am by no means saying that we should activate the cavalry on every call or directly upgrading every structure fire to a second alarm to get extra resources, rather just to say to plan appropriately.
 
**Yes, I know the airport does not give mutual aid back to the county, but that is a discussion for another day.**

Scarsdale doesn't have a spare engine?  And had to close a station because of such? Makes Eastchester not being called on the initial alarm even more of a head scratcher...the run card wouldn't be temporarily changed to accommodate such?
 
 

Glens Towing of Elmsford just took delivery recently of this beast of a wrecker that can tow anything. Hope to get a connection some more photos of the working end soon. Glen's is located in Elmsford, NY and specializes in hauling large equipment. They recently began covering I-287 as the authorized provider of heavy wrecker services. (This truck's NYSTA radio identifier is 511-4)
 
Some of the specs include:
2008 Kenworth T800 Chassis
2016 B & B Industries Custom Wrecker
5 Axles
50 Ton, Integrated 3 Stage Boom
50,000 pound wheel lift
Can handle 80 Tons
Has the boom tubes of a 70-ton rotator (highly unique)
Side Jack Legs
 
Only two wreckers like this exist. Both of them belong to Glens Towing.
 
I'd never heard of B&B Industries Wreckers before, but after looking through some of their builds, it is truly an amazing company that will build exactly what you want.
Here's their website if you want to take a look at some: http://www.billbottoms.com/ 
 

 
Peak hours is always going to be a disputed factor. Most of us used some kind of reporting software that can run a report for this. Way back when I was in a VFD one of the career guys did this, figured out what our busiest days were and posted it. He was trying to encourage more volunteers to be in the station on days they were more likely to get calls. Not sure why but we stopped posting the list after a while. At work in Dispatch we used to have a potential drop in manpower at 3AM but that was until they lowered it all the time. This would be the biggest fear of any right thinking union, that management would put more guys on during peaks but at the cost of less guys on during lulls. Then there is the fact of minimum pay. Most city employees in my city get a 4 hour minimum call back. Would the city want to pay this if the peak was less than 4 hours?
I think it is an interesting concept to look at staffing this way, but I would be afraid that the same data could be used to cut positions. I have seen two factions in a debate use the same data to make conflicting suggestions before and it never works out well for the rank and file.
 

You have brought up two different issues.
 
1) is it cheaper to use ot? This one varies greatly. What is the union contract require? I have seen some that pay straight time for prescheduled "ot" others pay double time on Sundays and holidays. In NY some retirement tiers require pension payments for ot, not for other tiers. We have also found that seniority has a factor, if the job has mostly Sr members it is cheaper to hire, mostly Jr members and ot is cheaper, so it's fluctuating over time.
 
2) You must define "peak hours". We are busiest during the day, many of these calls are slip and falls, alarms from workers, cooking, showers, changing co batteries, and so on. At night our volume drops dramatically. But the calls are more likely cardiac, respiratory, (I'd call earlier, but didn't want to bother you, so I waited till 2 am), drugs, serious mva's, and most working fires and almost all fatal and serious injury fires.
 
also in some cases the contract requires 10 - 24 hour shifts.

lets pray we never go back to those days. 

 
Barry, I love these two points because one leads to the next.  I remember from my Physiology of Flight class (one of my aviation electives) that it's the same ordeal in the airline industry.  The drop in the number of pilots requires the crews to fly additional legs each day, which leads to fatigue, a lack of spatial orientation, and confusion.  These are the three most common reasons that planes crash/deviate/etc. when the determination is pilot error.  The same is happening to the fire service, where a drop in the number of firefighters is making us fatigued and frustrated.  We end up overwhelmed trying to pick up the slack of not having the extra help on scene, and we get caught up in some sort of incident .
 
But I want to jump back to the OT portion.  When I took my economics classes there were a few points that brought out the fact that in many cases overtime costs are less expensive than hiring additional manpower (this wasn't fire service related, but just a general overlook into budgeting for personnel overhead, as overtime reduces the need to pay for another employee's benefits, healthcare, etc.).  Would paying firefighters overtime to fill a few extra seats during peak hours be effective enough to help mitigate incidents and prevent injuries?  Or do you think it may result in more injuries because firefighters will end up working more hours?  I know it's hard to say one way or the other because every department is different, but I'm just looking to pick peoples' brains to see what you and other may think of adding overtime shifts to help cover the busier hours of the day.

Can you find a copy or a link to that story from providence?

As a resident of the city, it would be fabulous to have a third ladder company staffed at all times.  Unfortunately, given the times of doing more with less, I don't see it happening on a full time basis.  Having adequately crewed apparatus these days seems to be an anomaly.  Heck, even FDNY only has an extra person on a handful of engines!
 
As a union rep myself, and as a concerned citizen, and as one to have some sort of common sense, I advocate every department to have the proper staffing for what "could happen."  I just don't see it happening as governments continually slash emergency services budgets to fill woeful gaps.  To pay the firefighters you have to cut money from somewhere else or run a deficit, and we all know budgetary deficits are bad.  So where is the money going to come from?  All too often the people siting at the desks crunching numbers forget that there are grants (SAFER is a prime one) that get more people on the rigs to get qualified personnel to the scene of an incident.  It just irks me as a professional in this service and as a citizen that we can't put enough firefighters on the front line!  Yes, we can do the job with three firefighters per rig....But we can do a heck of a lot better with just one more person apparatus.  We can do even more with a whole other truck!

They sould of done the Dash CF chassis a return to the days of the Mack's either way nice choice 

Date: 02/13/2017
Time: 14:28
Location: 51 Toms Rd
District: BFD
Channel: Ground 2
Weather: 35 & partly cloudy
Units: BFD: E41,E42,C411 (IC),
         SFD: E6,E7,E1,T1,R1,U4 (DC)
         SPD: 8S4 (Sgt.), 8S2 (Sgt.) 1D30, 3D48, 3B33
Writer:  AFS1970

Description: Initially reported as a tree and wires down in the driveway of middle school just about to release students for the day. E41 arrived to smoke showing from roof, and primaries down in the driveway. Box filled out for smoke condition in school. SPD shutting street down and staging parents in nearby shopping center to wait until clear to pick up students. Eversource (power company) responding priority 2.

Your comment doesn't make much sense in regards to the context of this discussion.  This wasn't a case of someone directly involved speculating about the success of a new program.  This was a case of someone directly involved telling you that a new program that has been in effect for a while now IS a success.
 
You're response was rather dismissive of that informed explanation. 
 
No, I don't believe everything I read.  However, I've had enough interaction with M'ave on this forum to know that he is FDNY and that he has been reliable when it comes to information related to FDNY matters.
 
You may be trying to have a discussion and there definitely is a difference between argument and discussion.  However, you don't seem to understand the detail of each.
 
You are the reason why the "argument keeps on flowing".  A discussion was taking place.  You just weren't up to speed on the issue when the discussion started and speculated regarding the potential success of the program.  I offered an educated opinion to counter yours.  You were dismissive of that.
 
You were also provided with reliable information by a person directly involved that the program is successful (because it's been in place longer than you were aware).  However, your response again, was dismissive and some people called you on it and tried to educate you some.
 
You became argumentative in response to that rather than be appreciative of the information provided to you.  Now you are trying to be preachy, apparently unaware that you are the one who took things from discussion to argument. 

While these statements were true a few years ago.  Engine Companies are increasingly being dispatched BLS calls.  The Major Injury calls are a good example.  They have added to the CFRD matrix a few years ago.  While the non-FDNY people on here will think yeah they should go on major injury calls, major injury calls are anything but major injuries and that's why they only send BLS.  Engine Companies have been increasingly sent on runs when the BLS unit reports responding with a delay.  In the grand scheme of things, this is nothing new the LAFD has used a matrix based on response times for a while.  The issue is the workload on some FDNY engines is pretty high.  My company has done well over 5K runs for quite a few years.  While it sounds great to work in a busy place and we do enjoy it, a company that is that busy as mine is is out of service over 20% of the time.  When people have real emergencies they have a 1 in 5 chance of the first due engine being unavailable.  

This may be a little off topic, but in addition to this article, I saw an article about a watchdog group that wants FDNY to basically re-structure the whole department and put EMT's and Paramedics on engines and/or ladders. The above article talks about EMS Fly Cars with medics. I have an opinion and a question:
 
First I believe it would be very difficult to make the engines in the FDNY paramedic engines. You'd have to outfit all the rigs with the medic supplies and I believe it would lead to crew instability. If it were to happen and a medic from the engine were to go to the hospital they'd be down one person. Also how easy would it be to get that person back to the fire station from the hospital if the ambulance were backed up on calls. And if the medic was a Lieutenant or Captain and had to go to the hospital on a high priority call, who becomes the officer on the engine? If this were to ever be done, a huge amount of rethinking and reshaping the whole FDNY fire and ems service would need to take place. It wouldn't be a "flip the switch" and off you go.
 
My question is about the difference between EMT training and First Responder training in New York State? What is the level of care that an EMT can give as compared to a First Responder without an ambulance to transport? Where I come from, EMT's basically get additional training in packaging and transporting patients with the ambulance. If a First Responder were to show up at a scene with the exact medical kit that an EMT had, they could offer the same level of care (O2, AED, EPI Pen, bleeding control, gather history and medications). The EMT gets additional training in splinting and moving a patient and ambulance transport protocol. Is NY State the same? If the skill level for a First Responder and EMT is the same for initial care and NOT transport, would it be fiscally prudent to have all firefighters (10,000+) trained to the level of EMT when in reality they are just doing First Responder work?  Let me end by saying that if an EMT in NY can do much more than a First Responder, then by all means upgrade them to EMTs. but it would still be a large undertaking with more training requirements, recertifications and money spent.
 
Here's the article about the watchdog group:
http://www.ufanyc.org/cmslist/admin/contents/view/23070
 

Good luck with your  HME 

Date: 02/04/2017
Time: 14:52
Location: 90 Morgan St
District: SFD-5 (Woodside)
Channel: Ground 2, SPD Main
Weather: 33 / Mostly sunny
Units: SFD: E5, E1, T1, R1, E2 (Haz Mat), U4 (IC), U6 (Safety)
          SPD: 44 (South Hold), 28 (West Hold), 10 (Hold Sergeant), 4B46
Writer:  AFS1970

Description: Car rolled into side of building, shearing off the gas main to medical office building. E5 reported a major gas leak, Special Call for Safety Officer. Eversource (Gas Company) requested Priority 1. SFD activated fire alarm to evacuate building. Gas main shut off & companies checking for further leaks on interior & exterior. SPD cars designated as hold units are in service during shift change for emergency calls but do not use normal beat designations only car numbers.

Sadly,  Avalon didn't learn anything from Edgewater. But as long as Avalon builds extreme lightweight wooden construction buildings, fires like this will be possible. This project was under construction and not occupied, and insurance probably covers it so Avalon probably doesn't care. But what would happen if it was occupied, and how much time would it take for residents to get out?
 
On the legislative side, there should be a law banning lightweight wood in structures such as these.
 
 

Can't help but feel like this will not help anyone (re?)gain faith in the Avalon brand, nor will it help instill any faith in the brand.  
 
I wonder, it said they were able to keep the fire from spreading to the completed structures... pardon me if I sound a little flippant, but anyone know if they actually learned a damn thing from the Edgewater Avalon fire, or are they still making the same decisions that, at least can be ARGUED, contributed to the fire's size?  You'd think they'd at least consider putting in fire walls, and sprinklers, especially if they insist on using that highly flammable "engineered lumber" to build most of the structure.  ~_~
 
 

This is just a general statement about the fire service but I think this thread touches on it. Whether volunteer or paid, the fire service is suffering from a severe manpower shortage everywhere. Many cities run with barebone minimums due to budget problems and volunteers have trouble recruting due to the two income economy we find ourselves in. 25 years ago, departments would take it as a personal insult if they weren't called to a fire in the next town over.