velcroMedic1987

I think "have to" is a little strong. Drinking doesn't have to be part of anything and certainly has the potential to result in stupid behavior, thus the responsibility to remain professional (as a state of mind) is shared by all. When you get large numbers of like minded individuals together in an unofficial setting, sharing stories over drinks is routine, in all walks of life. There was a time, not to long ago when most could handle this without devolving into stupidity, but we have yet again allowed some antics to occur without swift and severe repercussions, thus in becomes tacit approval.
Again, we cannot punish the majority for the sins of a small minority, even if they're the ones who get the press. I'm sure even though there's been some eyebrows raised due to these moron's, there were far, far more brothers who paid their respects and celebrated the lives of these men and the fire service as a whole in a manner befitting of our profession. I can't remember the last time I attended a funeral that didn't have some sort of post-ceremony gathering where friends, family and co-workers relaxed and shared stories and laughs. I hope it doesn't come to that.
It's up to all of us to ensure our members know the repercussions of their poor behavior and to hold ourselves and members accountable. You teach your kids how to act when they go to restaurants, right? You don't just stop eating out. Some of us have to realize that we cannot expect some of the newer folks to automatically "get it". As many things change, respect, chivalry, etiquette, and common sense disappear without constant reinforcement.

He needs a good ol fashion ass whooping is what he needs. Or perhaps a lesson on what that memorial stands for and what it means to most of us.
I did plenty of stupid s**t when I was younger, believe me. But I could never understand people who destruct property or downright disrespect memorials and other sacred things.

Disgraceful! That kid needs a lesson or two!

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

I listened to the audio from the PD relating to this incident and we're all overlooking the fact that these two cops were DISPATCHED to an apartment on the 13th floor for a report of a fire. They weren't trying to be heroic, they weren't trying to be firefighters, they were responding to a radio run as they probably had 1000 times just this year.
Absent a policy on how to respond to a reported fire in a high rise project building, these two unwitting victims just answered a call.
The soapbox is misplaced and responsibility will probably be placed on the department for the lack of training, lack of written policies, and the provision of incomplete information. These officers didn't have the benefit of CIDS, or a size-up, or a call-back for additional information. They just answered the call as they always do.
We work in disneyland compared to their housing environment and we can't judge these two officers for their actions.
Rest in peace Officer Guerra. Speedy recovery Officer Rodriguez.

I listened to the audio from the PD relating to this incident and we're all overlooking the fact that these two cops were DISPATCHED to an apartment on the 13th floor for a report of a fire. They weren't trying to be heroic, they weren't trying to be firefighters, they were responding to a radio run as they probably had 1000 times just this year.
Absent a policy on how to respond to a reported fire in a high rise project building, these two unwitting victims just answered a call.
The soapbox is misplaced and responsibility will probably be placed on the department for the lack of training, lack of written policies, and the provision of incomplete information. These officers didn't have the benefit of CIDS, or a size-up, or a call-back for additional information. They just answered the call as they always do.
We work in disneyland compared to their housing environment and we can't judge these two officers for their actions.
Rest in peace Officer Guerra. Speedy recovery Officer Rodriguez.

What was the officer's intentions? Did you speak to them in the elevator?
They just announced that the officer died so we will never know what he thought or what he was going to do when he got to the 13th floor.
bnechis, he won't be promoted and he won't be receiving any medals (except maybe posthumously).
They were sent on a radio run. Bottom line.

How is this any different than the fire service or EMS? The FD responds to everything, even when told there is nothing there by a credible source on scene (I know this will undoubtedly start the war stories about this one time, in band camp, when they said nothing was there but something was, blah, blah, blah).
What calls don't we have to go to and on who's authority can we say no, we're not going?
In a department like the NYPD, two beat cops in the projects aren't going to be able to say "we're not going".

I was involved 20+ years ago with an NYPD ESU officer who was killed in a fire response. It was a devastating event for many (my partner was his friend and the officer knew when he was to be intubated, he would not speak again. so he asked my partner to say goodbye to his family for him. The next day my partner quit EMS).
Since this is not the 1st time NYPD officers were critically injured while "operating" in a structure fire, I am surprised to find that the NYPD does not have a policy.
In my experience many police depts. including NYPD actually have a policy, its unwritten, but its very effective (sadly in a negative way). Police officers that attempt rescues are often given awards, sometimes promotions. This sends a very clear message to the members. This action is rewarded.
Many years ago we had a fire in an animal hospital & the FD rescued an attendant and a police officer (who had tried to make the rescue). A few months later their was 2 articles in the news paper (on the same page), 1) the officer receiving an award and detective badge, 2) the NYS Labor dept. was fining the PD for failing to follow the law in protecting the police officer.
My heart goes out to the officers and the families, but sadly this will happen again, because law enforcement in general believes they must respond to every call and do "something".

I understand the point you are attempting to make but I feel you are missing some major points. Nobody believes " wearing a uniform transforms you into something you are not". You are looking at it from the FD side and quite condescendingly at that. I'm sure they had no desire to " get in on the action" and were doing there job of protecting life and property which is very much " In the scope of their job description".
You made a statement that you always " stage away as requested by PD". How many times have you or a member of your department responded lights and sirens against the request of PD because that's not your "SOP"?
They where both housing officers so they did have elevator keys and most definitely knew how to use them.
You brought up " In the scope of their job description". This is the same forum that praises fireman for stopping a robbery or an assault in front of their house or while returning from a job. Where is your very literal definition of a " job description" then?
The bottom line is this is not the time or the place to Monday-morning quarterback someone's decision while they lay in critical condition in the hospital. I'm sure you truly wish them well and do hope they have a speedy recovery..but save the uninformed personal commentary to a later date.
Ps.. My panties are in a bunch and I'm not going to get over it

A fight......in hockey. Part of the game. So?
By the way, two cops selflessly rushed into a building yesterday investigating a fire. When they were overcome with smoke while stuck in an elevator, firemen rushed in to help our brothers in blue.
This is the story of reality on the street everyday. Two agency's that work hard along side each other.....
......oh! Sorry, let's get back to the completely unheard-of occurrence of a fight during a hockey game. (A game that ended with hand shakes and hugs all around)

Why is this news?

Fights or games?

Disgraceful! That kid needs a lesson or two!

I wonder what percentage of Firefighters could have made the 2 moves that that tradesman did?

If the junkie is fighting with you he(she) probably isn't a candidate for narcan anyway. The whole point is to counter CNS depression brought about by opiate overdose and I never met one of those who had much fight in 'em. Most of them are too out of it to even BREATHE!!!

You should be alert for a patient becoming agitated or combative. That's part of the job.
To suggest that good situational awareness and conflict avoidance is wrong doesn't make any sense at all.

If the junkie is fighting with you he(she) probably isn't a candidate for narcan anyway. The whole point is to counter CNS depression brought about by opiate overdose and I never met one of those who had much fight in 'em. Most of them are too out of it to even BREATHE!!!

Those violent reactions usually occur when the drug is given too fast via the IV route. I haven't seen it happen when given IN.
Like ALL drugs, narcan must be given carefully, with good judgement and when indicated.
I think we're forgetting an important fact though. The issue is respiratory depression. This is easily managed by any BLS trained provider. You don't need a magic drug to fix it. You need a BVM.

Having been assaulted and witnessing other responders being assaulted (after 1 individual was "agitated" he attacked ER staff member causing serious head trauma, then he pulled a knife on security. it took 6 responders to restrain him including 1 ESU officer, who almost lost his gun during the fight). Since that was about 25 years ago and I'm still in it, I am not worried as I KNOW how to titrate (adjust) the dose to bring back respirations, but keep them mellow enough that no one is put in danger. My concern is this is not being taught to all these minimally trained responders.
And a BVM will keep them alive. I would rather see that in every PD car before narcan. Since it could help many people, while narcan only helps a small % of that.

As others have mentioned, if you give the recommended dose, you run the risk of waking the patient up and they can get very violent (A number of inexperienced medics have been assaulted. I had a very large & very angry individual grab our drug box and fling it down the stair well of a 4 story walk up, nothing was salvageable).
Possible side effects include: change in mood, increased sweating, nausea, nervousness, restlessness, trembling, vomiting, allergic reactions such as rash or swelling, dizziness, fainting, fast or irregular pulse, flushing, headache, heart rhythm changes, seizures, sudden chest pain, and pulmonary edema. But you also run the risk of projectile vomiting. Never knew a patient laying on the stretcher could hit the ambulance ceiling like he was a fountain.
If you do wake the patient, they will want to RMA, the problem is the half-life of narcan is shorter than the half life of opiates. So the narcan wears off before the opiate and if they have enough on board they will go back into respiratory depression/arrest after the RMA.

There are no ill effects, that I know of, if given to someone who is not experencing an opiate overdose. The only bad effects would be giving Narcan to an opiate OD (morphine, heroin, methadone, codine and the recently popular synthetics vicaden, hyrdocodone) to quickly, which may cause sudden and violent withdrawal, in addition, if you administer enough to actually wake them up you will also have to deal with an upset junkie for "ruining" their high. Sometimes this can get out of hand. The other problem with waking them up is they always want to RMA which means forcing them to go or leaving them. This usually means you WILL be back for them (if they are lucky OR they get to go to that big shooting gallery in the sky) ALS usually gives just enough to get people to start breathing again on their own. I'm not sure of the uptake or dosage of the IN narcan. Opiate OD's are actually pretty easy to care for, you just have to breath for them. The last few years I've been telling students that if they are working in an tiered system and they have a complicated route back to the ambulance (flights of stairs mostly) to call for als backup (if they aren't on their way already), and stay put, cause it's not possible to bag someone going down the stairs and you always think you can get a "little" farther between breaths.

More wasted taxpayer dollars. This is why they keep closing firehouses and reducing crew sizes. If we keep entertaining this garbage NYC is going to become Detroit.

Not precisley correct as to "expressing an understanding" of the Establishment Clause. It's a phrase taken from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson 25 years after the Constitution was written . Jefferson was not even the author of the 1st Amendment. However, Jefferson and Franklin DID establish the first public school system. The schools were generally in churches and the Bible was REQUIRED reading...with the full acquiescence of Jefferson. The Bible was required reading, and teachers led prayers, in most public schools right up into the 20th century.
I am not a Christian. In fact, I am not religious at all. I am a Constitutional scholar who has studied the prolific writings of the Founders. The Bill of Rights mean EXACTLY what they say. The left is on a bent to add to and subvert it. But the intent of the Establishment Clause was solely to prevent the U.S. from doing what England did...creating a single official state religion. Many of the Founders came to America to escape the Church of England headed by the King. They wanted to ensure that nothing like it would be "established" in the U.S. That's it.
Therefore, the Clause says that "CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW" establishing a religion. That's it. All the rest of this "seperation of church and state" idiocy has been added by activist judges in collusion with radical atheists.
The Clause says nothing whatsoever - and nothing whatsoever was intended - that would prevent religious observances in government events and on government property. Those preclusions occurred subsequent to the appointment of liberal activists judges, beginning in the 1950s, improperly legislating from the bench.

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