Calif. Fire Dept. to Dispatch Citizens to Cardiac Emergencies

[JohnnyOV 2]

http://www.firehouse...iac-emergencies

SAN RAMON, Calif. -- There are iPhone apps for games, to help look up Spanish phrases and for bird watching.

Now there's an app that could help users save someone's life.

I think this is one of the most interesting, and IMO controversial, apps put out there. It is absolutely amazing that technology has come so far to be able to notify citizens of cardiac arrests occurring around them. This app is going to save lives, however I feel it brings on an undue risk to the departments and citizens who are now being "dispatched." What happens when a citizen is involved in a wreck because they were speeding down the street in their personal car to someone in cardiac arrest? I just see this as a liability to the department, when a citizen turns around and says, "Well you dispatched me to the incident, I was involved in an accident, you're now responsible for my coverage."

edit: and there is a PSA to go with it... http://vimeo.com/19139695

Edited January 28, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[JM15 386]

There could also be possible HIPPA concerns as well in my mind...

[JohnnyOV 2]

There could also be possible HIPPA concerns as well in my mind...

That too, but I re-read the article and it stated it would only be alerting citizens to cardiac arrests in public places. So i can see how they can argue against the Hippa law, especially if the citizen isn't even asking for a name

[Alpinerunner 61]

I think it's at least a good idea... worth a shot. If they aren't officially a memeber of an agency, then they aren't "responding" or "being dispatched" so I don't think there is liability there. If the person helping has an AHA cert then they should know what they are doing. If they don't, they are protected under good samaritan law. You can say "well what if they mess up / give poor CPR", but that could happen in any incident where a good samaritan tries to help. The app isn't mandating you do anything, just giving info.

[mikeinet 37]

Not sure I agree about HIPPA... they're not talking about patient names or any identifiable information.

Article carefully noted it only shows PUBLIC locations where there are emergencies -- I'd say that's covered under good samaritan laws.

[antiquefirelt 994]

As I replied in the FH forum, I'd bet that lawyers, reporters and whackjobs are the majority of this apps downloaders. Too many potential issues for this to be viable IMO.

[x635 4,066]

The response time for emergency services to my neighborhood is incredibly quick, and supplemented by an Paramedic Engine company and dual Medic ambulance.

However, if one of my neighbors (god forbid) goes into cardiac arrest, I would love to know. The sooner someone can start CPR the better.

It could be set up like a Community Alert, where people who wish to participate have to sign up and sign liability waivers. At least in my part of town, this would be a popular program.

[v85 212]

London (England) has a similar, although much more established and indepth program called Ambulance Community Responders

http://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/working_for_us/volunteering_with_us/tony_jenkins_-_ambulance_commu.aspx

A way to get around any potential liability issues would be to have the people sign up officailly with the department and maybe pass a fingerprint investigation. Although I could imagine something like that would cause problems with the unions.

[PEMO3 523]

Looking at this Home Depot video. Here is this old woman left alone in the isle of the store with her husband in cardiac arrest and not one store employee, manager, bystander, clerk there with her? Are not most stores now equipped with AEDs and if so are their staff not trained in their use? While I agree that I would also want to know if a neighbor collapsed based on this program it would be a wild guess because their house is not a public place. Great idea, good intentions, but in the real world to many issues that can and will arise to make it a royal headache. Just my opinion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Looking at this Home Depot video. Here is this old woman left alone in the isle of the store with her husband in cardiac arrest and not one store employee, manager, bystander, clerk there with her? Are not most stores now equipped with AEDs and if so are their staff not trained in their use?

At Home Depot I'd be happy to just find someone when I need help finding something. And after watching a "trained" fork lift operator trash multiple loads of lumber, It scares me to think how much damage the could do with an AED.

[wraftery 1,275]

At Home Depot I'd be happy to just find someone when I need help finding something. And after watching a "trained" fork lift operator trash multiple loads of lumber, It scares me to think how much damage the could do with an AED.

Now, now Bnechis, you know that California is way,way ahead of us East Coasters. Remember that they are the ones who gave us PPV on attack and other great innovations that we don't even dream would work.

However, they did give us ICS, which is a good thing. They tell you to use common terminology and when you take ICS courses they give you a Glossary of Abbreviations so you can figure out what the H they are talking about. They are very good at ICS because you can control vast numbers or resources in complex operations like burning down entire cities on a yearly basis.

I predict that within a year we will all be equipped with the new iPOD AED by Apple (a West Coast Company) because "If you see it at FDIC, you need one."

[xfirefighter484x 234]

First off, just a clarification, there is no such thing as HIPPA...

HIPAA:

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/index.html

A way to get around any potential liability issues would be to have the people sign up officailly with the department and maybe pass a fingerprint investigation. Although I could imagine something like that would cause problems with the unions.

And then at that point, when someone gets 'registered'/certified, are they still "civilians" or now in a different classification? And if so, then would any Good Samaritan Laws apply, or are they technically "professionals" since registering/signing up with a department?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#Laws_for_first_responders_only

Laws for first responders only

In some jurisdictions, good Samaritan laws only protect those who have completed basic first aid training and are certified by health organizations, such as the American Heart Association, American Red Cross, or St. John Ambulance, provided that they have acted within the scope of their training.[17] In these jurisdictions, a person that is neither trained in first aid nor certified, and who performs first aid incorrectly, can still be held legally liable for errors made. In other jurisdictions, any rescuer is protected from liability, so long as the responder acted rationally.[citation needed] In Florida, paramedics and EMTs are protected statutorily from liability, unless they were reckless.

[SECTMB 612]

First off, just a clarification, there is no such thing as HIPPA...

HIPAA:

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/index.html

And then at that point, when someone gets 'registered'/certified, are they still "civilians" or now in a different classification? And if so, then would any Good Samaritan Laws apply, or are they technically "professionals" since registering/signing up with a department?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#Laws_for_first_responders_only

Given enougth time and opportunity, the tort lawyers will find a way to corrupt the intent of this, or any, program meant to serve the general well being of the public. That's just an unfortunate by-product of efforts at good citizenship and with a little earnest effort and a stiff spine on the part of legislators the necessary laws can be enacted to protect everyone. Perhaps the technology is available such that the notification of need would only go out to phones whose owners are certified in CPR and AED operation and registered with the governing agency.

What if this App was available to all the County's EMS providers? How opportunistic would it be if some guy collapses in Aisle 20 at the Elmsford Home Depot and there were two OVAC members on Aisle 24 and a PVAC member on Aisle 2 who get the App notification?

As fast as we would like to think we can respond to any emergency incident, there is no denying the benefit of having a 'johnny on the spot'.

[ckroll 101]

I think it's at least a good idea... worth a shot. If they aren't officially a memeber of an agency, then they aren't "responding" or "being dispatched" so I don't think there is liability there. If the person helping has an AHA cert then they should know what they are doing. If they don't, they are protected under good samaritan law. You can say "well what if they mess up / give poor CPR", but that could happen in any incident where a good samaritan tries to help. The app isn't mandating you do anything, just giving info.

Caliifornia does not offer 'good samaritan' protection to untrained individuals, if memory serves. Wasn't a civilian held responsible for pulling a friend out of a vehicle when the result was permananet injury? Good samaritan is sometimes interpreted as off duty people who have training using that training without anticipation of compensation. Until the issue is litigated, one does not know how a court will interpret it. See Van Horn vs Torti. I believe PA is quite restrictive. I wouldn't help my own mother at the side of the road in PA.

HIPAA is the acronym for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. Its privacy components are secondary to the purpose of improving electronic access to medical records. There is a lot of disinformation about HIPAA, much of it promulgated by a certain law firm.... who also misspells it... and may be profiting from undue hysteria. For a quick easy reference, wikipedia has accurate information on both topics. Here's an idea for a new forum: Really? and What ever happened? We get these stories.... 'california woman sued' or ' off duty EMS lets person die' then we talk about it for a week and never go back. Maybe we should go back and see how some of these stories that do affect us turn out. We could also use some fact checking on the legal points.

For now, I'll stick with the bird watching app.