Firefighters used at DWI checkpoints ?

[50-65 205]

Although the article is short on specifics (as usual "reporting" these days), what exactly is the purpose of using firefighters in a law enforcement mission?

Other than traffic control, I can't, off hand, think of a legitimate reason for FD to be involved in a purely LE mission. And even at that, I don't think FD should be involved.

http://hudsonvalley.ynn.com/content/all_news/691672/increase-in-dwi-checkpoints-across-ulster-county/

Maybe some of you from up that way could enlighten us.

[v85 212]

Fire Police maybe for traffic control?

That's the only reason I could possibly think of. But their not wearing Fire Police vests or badges so I don't know.

Or maybe the photo is a stock photo of some other incident that the news just used.

Edit: it also says they were doing public education at the checkpoints. Maybe LE was first screening for 1192 drivers, then FD was a little bit past talking to people about the dangers of drunk driving and what they have seen

Edited September 1, 2013 by v85

[JM15 386]

The article states that Police and Fire Departments are teaming up....

This is an absolutely horrible idea. People like Fire and EMS because we don't send them to jail. This could end up hurting this FD's relationship with the public in the future. How are they covered for workers comp benefits or LODD benefits if they are performing police duties? There are just too many questions. If they need help with the checkpoints hire more cops, give guys overtime. Where is the PD union on this?

[38ff 250]

^{My district is in Ulster County. We weren't ask to do such a thing, and even if we were, my fire district, I'm 99.999999% sure would say no, as we are not LE, and I fail to see why LE would even ask FD to assist with this. Very interesting.. My dept has great relations with our local PD/NYSP/UCSO, and we all work very well together. Just the legal "what happens if someone gets hurt, as it wasn't a fire call" could be a huge mess, one that I sure wouldn't want to deal with on the district or dept level.}

Edited September 1, 2013 by 38ff

[EMT111 149]

^{My district is in Ulster County. We weren't ask to do such a thing, and even if we were, my fire district, I'm 99.999999% sure would say no, as we are not LE, and I fail to see why LE would even ask FD to assist with this. Very interesting.. My dept has great relations with our local PD/NYSP/UCSO, and we all work very well together. Just the legal "what happens if someone gets hurt, as it wasn't a fire call" could be a huge mess, one that I sure wouldn't want to deal with on the district or dept level.}

Not to mention what happens if some stupid DWI idiot decides to use his car as a weapon or pulls a gun? Not much the fire fighters can do.

[Reliance 29]

We have had our department team up wwith the RCMP & EHS NS around the first of December every year with MADD & one of the local funeral homes to promote the MADD drinking & driving promo for the XMAS season.

Also sometimes the taxis get involved and signs asking: Who do you want to drive you home from your XMAS party or New Year's Eve parrty.

A Taxi, Police Car, Ambulance or Hearse.

[houlidsa 76]

I'm not sure about that dept on the news clip but I know in another article a few months ago also in Saugerties it stated the same thing. However the FD was participating by providing the use of the district light tower and members to operate it. It is of the big tow behind Wacker style.

I feel that if you want to let them use the light tower, give them a tutorial and off you go. But by guys standing around I feel it sends the wrong message. Many guys on here can relate to showing up to a EMS run and say "we don't care we're not cops, what's wrong with them?". After people seeing this it maybe harder to gain the public's trust, especially in some communities.

[38ff 250]

I will 100% agree about doing preventative DWI things. Education, demos at High Schools, etc. You want to borrow the light tower, fine, here is how to operate it and please fuel it up before you return it. But thats where FD involvement needs to end. As for having FD people at a checkpoint in any capacity (or none at all), absolutely not. Way too much liability, not to mention "not my job at all".....

Edited September 1, 2013 by 38ff

[Dinosaur 844]

Could have been one or two FF with the trailer if necessary but as others point out, it ain't rocket science to run one. Let the PD operate it instead of babysitting the thing all night.

BUT, it could have been that they're getting their "points" by being on that "call" so there's a bunch of them just standing around. Great picture for the fire service.

[38ff 250]

If it is a call, then they are covered by.. But you still have that perception problem...

[ex-commish 490]

Leave the check point to the police.

[houlidsa 76]

The funny thing is so many threads turn into paid vs. volunteer. But the ones that diminish their own career by continually relying on volunteer FDs is the PD. Most people don't realise it but here is an example: MVA, LE fly as fast as they can to the scene (most w/o any EMS capabilities) they do some paperwork and then leave the VFD to control traffic. I have never heard LE ever say hey I got this, they just want to be available for the next job. But if LE was always tied up on this stuff then they would be forced to have more units working. Which means when the SHTF backup maybe just that much closer. This is why sometimes it hurts my feelings but career FD companies that are Union houses take time and occassionally miss fires.

Its a double edge sword because LE doesn't want to do certain tasks and VFD is sometimes all to willing to "help their community". But don't these guys pay taxes too? I know I pay taxes so I shouldn't have to stand in a foot of snow. Close a road in a winter storm, VFD will do it because PD does not want to. Even though if LE did they may be forced to call someone in to staff another radio car.

[gamewell45 258]

Even though if LE did they may be forced to call someone in to staff another radio car.

Right or wrong, it all comes down to money, which many communities are short on today. If they can get away without calling in someome to staff another radio car, thus saving money, then they'll do it.

[Dinosaur 844]

The funny thing is so many threads turn into paid vs. volunteer. But the ones that diminish their own career by continually relying on volunteer FDs is the PD. Most people don't realise it but here is an example: MVA, LE fly as fast as they can to the scene (most w/o any EMS capabilities) they do some paperwork and then leave the VFD to control traffic. I have never heard LE ever say hey I got this, they just want to be available for the next job. But if LE was always tied up on this stuff then they would be forced to have more units working. Which means when the SHTF backup maybe just that much closer. This is why sometimes it hurts my feelings but career FD companies that are Union houses take time and occassionally miss fires.

Its a double edge sword because LE doesn't want to do certain tasks and VFD is sometimes all to willing to "help their community". But don't these guys pay taxes too? I know I pay taxes so I shouldn't have to stand in a foot of snow. Close a road in a winter storm, VFD will do it because PD does not want to. Even though if LE did they may be forced to call someone in to staff another radio car.

This isn't paid/volunteer at all.

You may be right that there is a engendered reliance on FD's by small-town PD's but is this truly a problem or just your perception? Is it a mutually advantageous situation where the FD benefits by having more to do and the PD benefits by having more hands available in an emergency.

Every cop is trained in as at least a First Responder so they're not "flying as fast as they can to the scene with no EMS capabilities". They also have to get there to make the scene safe, direct traffic, and investigate the accident.

As for the PD leaving the FD to wrap up the scene, in my almost 30 year career I don't think I ever saw that. PD was always on scene when we departed and they never expected us to hold it down so they could clear. It was their job, not ours, once the victims were removed.

I've also never heard of PD "not wanting to close a road". Maybe the issue is 10 roads to close and only 2 cars on duty. That's an entirely different issue and is a budgetary one.

What do you mean that Union houses take time and miss fires? Career houses never close, that is unless they're browned out by dirtbag politicians.

[houlidsa 76]

You are correct this is not paid vs volunteer. Its someone career that they diminish by allowing someone else volunteer to do it.

Problem or perception depends on which direction you look at it from. From a unionized outsider it appears as a problem when looking at from the unionized labor side. Which the LE may not always see, you know the whole tree for the forest saying. Tax payers, whom sometimes don't even know that the FD is volunteer, would look at this as a good thing. But these are the same tax payers who have never given a minute back to their community, whether its directing traffic in a storm or joining a rotary club.

This particular article is a perception issue. These actions do not put the FD the best light with every citizens. Even though many firefighters are swore peace officers the position of neutrality allows us to do our jobs better. We are perceived as the good guys who come to help. I've had little kids say "hi police man" and their parents so "no he a firemans, he a good guy".

As for every cop being trained, that is a very strong statement. Wasn't this an issue after a little girl got run over in the city a few weeks back?

Not having enough LE available can be a budget issue. But how do you build a case for more resources, manpower and bigger budget if the menial jobs are always past off?

Remember your 30 year career and my 20 year career will never be the same. Different times & different places. So I can only give observations on incidents I have been present for.

Union shops take time. We don't close, we take time. You get back from a fire (or washing off vomit) and are OOS showering and another run comes in, you miss it. As explained to me there will always be more. If the numbers show 1 firehouse can cover every call & every fire then you don't need 2 firehouse.

[v85 212]

I have to say that I don't agree with using the fire department in a checkpoint, unless like I said they were doing a purely pub-ed type role, and even then its iffy but:

As far as perception problems go:

Wouldn't you also have perception problems doing decontamination (i.e. stripping people); or telling a parent that they can't see their kids who were just in a car accident, or doing perimeter control at a reunification point for a mass shooting (like the pictures of the Newtown Fire Police and Fire Department)

Also, I don't really think we should have a little bit more information than a vague news article and a picture, when trying to figure out what exactly happened.

Edited September 2, 2013 by v85

[38ff 250]

I agree that those situations are also perception problems, but they are all what I would consider in the "scope of work" for any fire dept, and "understandable" by most people. DWI Checkpoints, no to the scope of work and understandable.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Every cop is trained in as at least a First Responder so they're not "flying as fast as they can to the scene with no EMS capabilities". They also have to get there to make the scene safe, direct traffic, and investigate the accident.

2) I've also never heard of PD "not wanting to close a road".

1) I have seen this many times. My favorite is when they pass the engine and ambulance (in an unsafe manor) to get there quick and then they start screaming for us to expedite. Two weeks ago we were dispatched to a report of an MVA with a severe hemorage. I was in my office at the time and thought nothing of the call until the police dispatcher started screaming on the radio for a man pinned under a car with an arm amputation.She also sreamed 3 times "RESPOND CODE 3" ( I have never heard them this excited before). I looked out my window to see 3 police cars flying up the street. My wife called me a few minutes later to ask whats going on as "1 of the cop cars was doing 70mph as it passed my home". she said all 4 tires were off the ground as it cleared the crest of the hill. We live at the creast of a blind hill. Less than a minute later I hear the officer onscene and screaming into the radio "does anyone have a 1st aid kit". At this point they have upgraded the call to a man trapped under a car.

While the dispatcher and officer(s) put a lot of lives in danger for no reason. I must say I was very impressed with the 2 sargents that responded. They were calm, professional, gave good direction and made sure that while the area was sealed off, that officers remained in there cars to move for the amb & FD and to "make sure the scene was left open so the FD's Rescue could get right in there".

2) I have heard this from troopers on a number of calls, its been beaten to death here a few times and there are a number of youtubes of FF's being arrested for violating this.

[JCESU 20]

^{. My wife called me a few minutes later to ask whats going on as "1 of the cop cars was doing 70mph as it passed my home". she said all 4 tires were off the ground as it cleared the crest of the hill.}

bwahahahaha-- I just had this silly cartoon like vision of your wife standing on your front lawn with a radar gun...

[AFS1970 504]

When my city first did DWI checkpoints (before DWI became OUI) they used to have a fire stand by. This was new and they were just learning how to do this and the thought was that there would be some horrible crash as someone tried to run the roadblock. Instead of just stopping cars on the street, they took a really wide section of roadway, one of our only 6 lane stretches. They directed all traffic into a parking lot / driveway where the actual checkpoint ran. They had bails of hay set up behind the barricades. It was quite a show. The Engine crew that was there watched all the action from the cab and said it was very entertaining.

Fast forward a few years and these are now done with a few cars and a truck full of cones and sawhorses. The command post is there as a mobile office. The PD also has their own light trailer now. No on site fire component at all. However I can see where a sloppy reporter seeing firefighters at one of these would write a story like the one that started this.