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Jake

Using The Aerial Itself To Vent

18 posts in this topic

Is this something that can actually be done?

 

 

x635 likes this

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Not a good idea,but sometimes it's necessary seen it done many times in NYC and other cities....never saw the aerial rip up a roof just take out windows...

Edited by fire patrol nyc
correction
vodoly, x635 and BIGRED1 like this

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Using it to vent a dormer or cupola by putting it through the window is one thing.  Using it to force apart timber is another.  If that were a new aerial I would bet that that would void the warranty and I'd be curious to hear what the folks that perform the ladder certification would say if they saw this.  I don't have a problem doing whatever it takes to save a life, but I didn't get the sense that was what we were watching here.

Edited by mfc2257
vodoly and x635 like this

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Have seen Jersey City do its several times  on top floor apartment house fire as well as 1 house fire Ridgefield NJ (Volunteer dept) Used this method  during a heavily involved structure fire with people trapped  (2 person  fatal) using their 2 year old Sutphen mid mount stick  witch Scorched the tip of it  It's mounted on the wall of the apparatus bay at their firehouse now I believe there's pictures of this fire  At BT fire photos .com 11/17/12 scroll down 

Edited by vodoly
x635 likes this

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The Chief of Dept. when I started was convinced that this was a valid thing to do when venting was necessitated, and couldn't be quickly or safely performed by personnel. His take was the aerial was a tool and far less important than firefighters lives. It was/is hard to disagree. I know of one fire where our old Maxim aerial was utilized to open up multiple windows covered in plywood on a tire warehouse, as the IC felt putting FFer's on the tip to remove plywood would have been too slow and very dangerous given the flammability of the exiting smoke. Not an option any more for us as we only have a TL. 

 

Some years later (2005) while we were having dinner with a few factory engineers, our salesman and a nationally recognized apparatus consultant this topic was brought up. Everyone agreed this was a valid tactic, but of course the manufacturer would have no control over how it was done, thus no way they'd sanction it. Noted was the fact that most new aerials have a bolt on tip section, and damage to the end could be fixed as long as the rest of the aerial was not damaged in the maneuver.  Clearly, you need to be certain the tip clears any structural members. Questions of whether it should be lined up then lowered in vs. extended into the window remain a source of contention. I know of one "old" story from Auburn, Maine where the aerial was extended in and was driven into the ceiling above which then blocked the window as a means of egress which was the original intent, and firefighters suffered burns as a result. 

Billy and x635 like this

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Remember that a lot of newer aerials tend to have other fixtures at the tip, like scene lighting and beacons, that could be broken off during this tactic.  This would just be more falling debris that could injure someone on the ground (like the cupola in the video above!).

x635 likes this

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I don't think that's a cupola, but rather an air conditioning unit I believe. And I see no problem with using the aerial to remove it as shown. 

x635 likes this

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Hadn't watched the video before, but I'd want to be sure my operators understood when it was OK and how it was done. In this case with the aerial mostly retracted it would seem far less likely to be damaging than if that had been at full extension. Aerials are not meant to be sideloaded, or torqued in any manner. This is exactly the type of use the aerial engineers feared when we talked about this. Again, maybe the situation called for this and the risk was worth the reward...

x635 and FFPCogs like this

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If that was a attic fire then it was a good move.  What ever that was it wasn't really well attached to the rest of the house.  Imeadiate results too.

x635 likes this

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49 minutes ago, FF1 said:

The situation dictates your actions.

 

 

Yes it does and if we'd get back to understanding and teaching this instead of trying to regulate every move on the fireground in the name of "safety", the fireground would become a much more productive place.

 

Know your tools...including your rigs, how, when and where to use them to the best effect and then use them as the situation dictates to get the job done.

 

There was a thread on here a few months ago about radio etiquette with a video in which a "bad" word was used. The issue has also appeared on Statter 911 recently. Now the use of "bad" language is not why I bring this up here, I do because the short sweet and concise content of that comment is the point. Early in the video of a 2 alarm job in Queens(?) a member notifies an interior officer that he has a line in place at the top of the second floor stairs and asks that officer what he wants him to do. The officer replies "put the f#ckin' fire out"!!....and THAT my friends is the point. 

 

Our job is to "put the f#ckin' fire out" in the quickest and safest way possible using all the tools at our disposal, is it not? That million dollars worth of equipment sitting out in front of the fire building isn't there just for show. Those big red trucks with flashing lights and sparkling chrome are more than just glorified taxis and parade pieces...they are one of the many tools at our disposal, nothing more, nothing less. And when the situation dictates they should be used as such to put the f#ckin' fire out!!! 

 

Edited by FFPCogs
misspellings
lt411, x635 and COH Bulldog like this

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Like I said before, do whatever it takes to save a life.  It didn't look like this was a life saving move (although I can't be sure).  My concern is if 10 minutes later, the aerial is needed to effect the rescue of the jake who is clearly seen walking across the back of the roof at the beginning of the video, and its been tweaked by the side loads that it was never intended to endure OR if a hydraulic line fails due to placing forces on the hydraulic system that it wasn't intended to withstand, then what happens.  You've got a ladder that OOS due to using it in a way it wasn't designed and a FF who's most efficient rescue may not happen.  There are limits to what the equipment can withstand.  Within the scope of normal operation we know what the ladder will withstand with regard to water flow and tip weight that is designed to be measured in the vertical plane.  We have no idea what forces are put on an aerial device when using it to do demo work on the horizontal plane.

 

Do whatever it takes to save a life.  Use your tools according to their intended design and specification otherwise.

x635 likes this

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22 hours ago, FFPCogs said:

I don't think that's a cupola, but rather an air conditioning unit I believe. And I see no problem with using the aerial to remove it as shown. 

 

I really don't like the way that the AC unit is just knocked around and falls to the ground.  Granted, there was no one underneath it, but it's just sketchy to me that using the stick in this manner can cause something heavy to fall.  I'm sure someone was watching to see where it would go so no one would get hurt.

 

This video is a first for me as I've only seen the aerial be used to break out windows, not venting the actual roof.

x635 likes this

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In this case it was a good move, ask the guys inside, not too much strain on the aerial ladder and a minimum of lateral pressure which as we know is an aerials weakness. Perhaps a little freshening up on the orange tip paint , a unmelted rubber rung cover and all will be well. But seriously that move sure got results.

x635 likes this

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In the case of the ridgefield Incident Chief hit EVAC order shortly after the fire started blowing out the front  They made all out effort to try and get to the 2 trapped residents (Mother & Son)

dwcfireman likes this

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