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I agree, well written post Joe. We didn't look at these calls as nuisance though.

We used to ride around the district and I'd spend a lot of time staring out the window at the neat row after row of little pink houses, block after block, ain't that America. Aided's, lift assists, water conditions, all the service calls gets all of that look behind the doors and locks of the little pink houses. The encounters would soften the hardest cigar chomping brutes of the job. They softened everybody.

There'd be the poor, frail elderly and oft neglected by remaining family or friends, victim; stuck in some torturous position for God knows how many hours, wedged behind a fixture, soiled, humiliate, scared, confused.

And the compassion that flew forth from otherwise stoic members of the services was always warming. Yet the whole scene always enveloped me. The old photos on the wall from when the husband was still alive, from their younger days of love, family, children, photos from later when those kids grew up, got married, moved on...

In the end, this poor compassion-needy person is stuck, helpless on the floor of her bathroom with acid burns from having been unable to relieve herself properly. Each and every single call, heartbreaking in a way. Makes the self-preservation instinct kick in for a lot. Trying to fit humor in some where when picking up.

In a way, Americans are all victims of our collective success, relatively luxurious compared with much of the rest of the world. Yet, here we are, all separated, elderly abandoned and left to their own means. Isolated. Alone. Half of everybody in this country has got some kind of head problem because of how we are all so alone so much even within the hustle and bustle of large populated areas.

Yeah, those lift assists. You've got to construct an iron ring around your heart for the time you do these jobs, because if you let all of that despairing into yours...it leaves scars.

CAN WE PLEASE MERGE THIS THREAD WITH THE "TROOPER THREAD"?????????

It's just too much work to keep up with TWO pissing matches at the same time.....

Wouldn't that be crossing streams? lmao

Edit: spelling

I meant hotpockets. No uh hotshower..what is it again? OH hotwashing. 10-4. k.

I'm glad I was not in their probie school.

You weren't cool enough...too many hotbaths...lol

Im not threatening you, just posting the fact that anyone who goes out to 'teach' i.e. make money

You're not serious are you? Do you honestly think money is the motivating factor behind any professional who desires to share his knowledge and experience? Since you know everybody, why don't you go down and ask Bob Morris that and see what kind of reaction you get.

It is people with attitudes like yours who would turn this site into another worthless waste of time rant. Everybodygoes....just go. lol

Sorry George. I hope it didn't bring back memories of the shower incident during probie school......

Not at all. Your secret is safe with me. lol

Why am I not seeing any photos in the OP? Very strange.....

Edit: What do I have to do to get an answer, ask this in French? Very well: Pourquoi suis-je pas voir toutes les photos dans l'OP? Très étrange.....

Barry why are you hotwashing tonight??? I thought you washed only every Saturday night ??? If even if you don't need to !!!

Really nice visual Marc. Thanks.

Oh my god, if I wasn't working off an Ancient Roman version of MS word right now I would absolutely turn that into an official flow chart/decision matrix. We could even send some to the NYPD and NYSP to put in their cars! Courtesy of EMTBravo members.

That sir, is arguably one of the best sarcastic answers to a thread I have seen on this website in a LONG time. I'd commend you for it, but the Fire Department has sole responsibility for sarcasm and humor operations on this forum. Stop trying to do our jobs...

That's an interesting morphing of this conversation into a bigger, unspoken truth about this website. Why is it that EMTBravo has had such in-depth investigation, observation, reporting of fire department related issues?

That is a reflection of the demographic makeup of the membership. I dare say volunteer firefighters are the majority of members here, followed by EMS, other type/enthusiast/photographer, then career firefighters and lastly cops. No science there, just a shot in the wind based on observing the site itself.

Firefighting and tactics are fair game for ripe conversation. There are no security issues related to the public release of information about tactics, what was or was not done, etc.

EMS has a major following. After all the place is named after Seth's old ride when he was doing EMS in Westchester County.

It must be frustrating at times for our Brothers and Sisters in LE, because most of what they know is classified, and cannot be discussed here. The only issues that make it to public discussion are those infamous cases which the media believes is their responsibility to make fodder of discussion.

I think most of the media thinks they are doing something patriotic by continually criticizing LE, and focusing in on the cases of the day that are controversial.

There has been much discussion from the left, that law enforcement in America is becoming "Israeli-ized." The majority of Americans have accepted the tighter restrictions on our personal liberties and freedoms as just the cost of living a free life in an open democracy where there are security threats to everybody's safety. I understand and accept the "Patriot Act" but sometimes wonder why the TSA has to act politically correct by body searching disabled little children.

TSA represents in ordinary people's minds; authority. The same authority as the police officer. The understanding of a Federal level of authority even more powerful on peoples lives than they realize.

Not to wonder too far though, but members here from LE figuratively have their hands tied when it comes to discussion here. I guess that's why fire discussion became so prevalent. We from fire do love to talk shop, as LE does. They just have to do it in private mostly, while we blab away here.....

Whomever actually did scroll up and rub Messier's head yesterday; keep up the good work! Miracles work, The end of last night's game showed us that.

Me being the superstitious bastard that I am have prohibited myself from the Messier rub. PLEASE, we're all counting on you! lol

ok I will try one more time, the pics show 4 cops 3 on a 2 1/2 " and 1 supervising. It also looks like no one is in danger, and the operation is defensive.

1. When the pd was dispatched was it for a particular pd function per their sop's or did they just buff the call?

2. if it was to perform pd duties who is now doing those?

3. If they were not needed to do their job go back in service, or did more pd have to show up to fulfill those duties while they were on the line.

4. I keep hearing about helping the pd when / if they are being attacked of course no question, again no one is in danger here

5. A little math defensive operation with the 2.5" line. tft flowing approx 250 gals per minute plus 4 anybodys (pd, fd, dpw etc) or place a master stream into operation with the same 2.5" line and flow a min of 500 gals with a 3/8" tip and leave one member there to supervise that operation and you just freed up 3 people.

I am not bashing cops I am wondering why so many of the members on here feel it is ok to put anybody at anytime on a fire scene just because you need help. Thats what radio's are for, push the button and call for more help.

I keep reading about rural depts and lack of manpower so basically someone went thru a lot of training to become a "firefighter" and now that there is an incident anybody with 2 legs and 2 arms is put to work. Something doesnt seem right in that situation.

Chief your questions really should be directed at two people; the fire commander on scene and the commanding officer of the police. I'll not make leaps in judgement, but aren't some job functions, such as securing a perimeter, once it is done it's basically done, and personnel will have down time between tasks? They won't necessarily pick up and go back in service, because their job function is ongoing, just with periods of time in between tasks.

I think I understand your perspective. In New Rochelle things like this don't really happen. In an ideal world they wouldn't happen anywhere. The state of manpower availability or lack thereof in rural areas is well known to all of us. It certainly isn't the fault of the people still making the effort to help their communities.

Was there an error in judgement by the IC? Once again, in an ideal world, yes. This was obviously not an ideal situation out there.

Did you ever see pictures of the LA Riots where LAFD Task Forces dropped hose and hydrants for civilians then continued down the block to the other dozen buildings burning? Once again, the conditions on the ground, when far from ideal, sometimes produce efforts being made by others to assist in controlling the problem.

An honest airing of opinions, in a pretty civilized way. It's got to be a healthy thing to air some of the frustrations guys may have been feeling about some of this. Think about if they had regular, informal briefings that would bring ESU and SOC together over coffee one Sunday morning a month or something (check all firearms and haligans at the door please gentlemen).

Then again the point; does having a healthy dose of competition between agencies motivate personnel even further toward excellence in operations? Surely, as long as the operational co-existence does not engender either unsafe ops for victims or emergency personnel.

The unspoken here; how each and every one of these pros from these jobs would DIE for one another. The time for discussion or disagreement would be left for after a cop dragged a fireman to safety, or a fireman dropped the perp the cop was chasing.

What made a lasting impression on me; during Flips of '98 they used to intermingle the FDNY Lts with those of us fortunate to also be attending from our various jobs and promotions. There were 30 guys in my class; 15 FDNY, 15 State. Do you know, every single FDNY Lt in that class was a transferred NYPD Brother?

Think about John and Joe Vigiano when thinking about the Brothers and Sisters of NYC. It really is shared blood.

The website: FDNY gets a whole new set of SOCs! (git it?)

Bad jokes aside, the NYPD rig is interesting as well. 3623 is it? What is that, a command rig, ESU, satellite set-up...

Safe Ops to ALL Brothers, whether your rig is red, or white and blue...

Angelo, when you said "just the response you were looking for" or words to that effect about another post, the moose I think innocently missed the sarcasm bro.

i dont want to jinx it but i hope so

Scroll up and rub Messier's forehead for good luck!

When was that last week ?

Hey now, those are turn-of-the-century ALF's!

Everyone might have shook hands and patted everyone on the back in the public view, but I think behind closed doors things might have been a little different.

I highly doubt it.

You have read about these. Were you there or are you just going off what you saw and heard in a Fire magazine or on the internet? I ask the question, were the write ups objective or were they written up by someone with an anti-PD agenda or anti-PD sentiments? Obviously video doesn't lie but even a video may not catch the whole scene and just pieces of it.

I have seen first hand and read the other side of the fence, with FD members doing ridiculous things at rescues to jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others. Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.

I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else is emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job. The facts have been exhausted here numerous times, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but many local PD's (including NYC and WCPD) were tasked with performing rescue work long before many FD's. Bitching about PD continuing in the rescue field is like EMS bitching about FD's encroaching on their "turf" when all these FD's want to get into the EMS first response business. Is the arguement valid? As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs, but I'm not going to knock them for it because in the end it's what's best for public safety.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

I understand what you're saying Joe. We must also acknowledge there are always going to be comments from the general public (and sometimes FD members) because of the responsibility you must carry enforcing the law.

It's not a popular job, because 95% of everyday ordinary Americans go afoul of some kind of law, probably every single day. There is a lot of projected anxiety toward the police. It's easy for someone to point at the cop when he gets a speeding ticket and say "that such-and such." What a common reaction to shirk the responsibility that the driver was doing 76 in a 55, and say it's the cop's fault for writing the ticket! So Grandma Hespess who prides herself on having never broken a law, carelessly speeds down the Sprain Brook Pkwy, doing 70 and talking on the cell phone. That d@#n cop!

I have always admired the fraternity of the police. It is extremely strong. You have to have each others' backs; because sometimes it is you against the world.

At the same time, you're not going to find more people who gather at a website, who have as much respect for their police brothers in blue, as those who gather here. Many, many times, the misdirection of hostility directed at the human being tasked with LE, the guy in the uniform gets the brunt of those dissatisfied with the law itself.

I have seen and read about PD doing rescues that has put themselves and othersin harms way. 2 by NYPD at a high angle rescue from a high rise and a trapped person under a car where it might have coast a person their life.And 1 in upstate where 2 police became trapped in a burning building and had to be taken from a window by a tower ladder.

There is a long history of agency competition. The two incidents you are referring too from NYC, I am familiar with the events, but I don't think anybody ever established if there was even any fault, let alone who it should have been directed against. Inter-agency cooperation should be in the best shape it's ever been, as many issues of cooperation, chain-of-command, common respect, etc have been noted to have been addressed.

It serves no productive purpose to try and elevate the drama or to finger point.

Personally, I think ESU and SOC should probably increase cooperative training initiatives. It couldn't hurt, and there's probably not enough of it.

I hope nobody from PD bites on pettiness.

Regarding the "10-26" comment, to my understanding that means "food on the stove." That's just a fact, not a slight.

ALL of you do a GREAT JOB. God Bless you all.

I don't know, I mean like two people posted something negative about the photo, the actions of the Troopers as directed by the Incident Commander. I think the blow back comments from that were a bit much, but I understand.

We all need to remember the major differences between the urban operation of emergency service, and those occurring in the 'burbs or the sticks. When you work for an organization of virtually unlimited resources, the delineation of responsibility is necessarily more defined.

However in the outer areas of cities and beyond those lines of responsibility become more blurred toward simply a common goal of eliminating a threat, or rescuing those in need, treating them. However it must be done, by whomever is tasked with the immediate or secondary responsibility.

I remember a mailman helping on of our guys raise a ground ladder to effect a rescue.

An ambulance operator hooking up a hydrant for a one man engine performing a forward lay.

It goes on.

If these three guys had been a couple of carpenters working next door, and the mailman, this story doesn't even surface. There are everyday people out there who regularly come upon emergencies they did not ask to be near, yet still spring into action to help victims and first responders.

We as a people are loaded with angst these days. We've lost our collective sense of humor. Many are so economically squeezed the pressure is almost unbearable. People are going crazy out there; too many of them.

Thank God there are still so many people on the side of civilization, who step up, who help out. That is what we a people still are, despite all the chaos around us. Stay safe.

The ho-hum spring cleaning detail forced upon me by my lady, lead me to locate this by sheer coincidence this morning, in a box of paperwork stored in the closet! It's a sign!

Glad we're all in agreement about the expansion joints.

Forgive me for not mentioning in the opening, how much my heart goes out the the Brothers and Sisters of The Jobs that had to deal with this alarm. As somebody so aptly stated in the thread about the Sullivan fire, now they need to bring in debriefers, counselors, psychologists, whomever to help all these emergency workers talk through and deal with the aftermath.

I guess that's why this topic had the potential to light my fuse for a minute there.

Because OUR PEOPLE have to deal with the effects of the boondoggled, bogged-down, countless excuse laden, INACTION on the part of DOT or whomever should be doing follow-up improvements to deadly and faulty roadways.

Don't tell me there can be any legitimate excuse for letting a row of roadway lights go un-repaired for YEARS, when it was sighted as a contributing reason why a dead guy was missed. And I had to witness first-hand what the effect of that call did to my co-workers. And we weren't even the lead agency. Guys were sick about it. For a long time.

I pray all those first in on this 7 fatality crash are okay personally. And I curse those who let uncorrected defects in the roadways continue to exist, ensuring more of OUR people who have to go pick up the pieces will be subjected to unspeakable horrors.

Why are we blaming the road? Reckless driving caused the accident. After the multiple fatality in which the SUV crossed the divider several years ago the city raised the divider. Shortly after the work was completed a car jumped the barrier. You will never stop these accidents from happening. Were those barriers higher maybe the van wouldn't have gone off the road and instead it would have been sent back into traffic and killed the occupants of another vehicle.

Reckless driving and an unacceptable dangerous roadway caused that accident. How many times did it have to happen in the same location with so many innocent people killed, the road identified as a total danger, before DOT apparently is finally taking action?

That incident I referred to with the "lost body." Do you know the lack of working street lamps in that area of the CCP was identified in the final report as adding to the fact that first responders missed a victim? Do you realize that those lights have STILL not been repaired?

The utter incompetency and lack of follow-up repairs on the parkways is criminal in my opinion.