wraftery

Have a great retirement

Check out youtube on a search using "Thamesford Fire-Lessons Learned"

It is one of the best critiques I have ever seen.

Sorry I had to give you a phrase to search, but for some reason, I couldn't give you a link but my computer is giving me a hard time

^{This was a great judgment call by the officer. All the driver did was gently push the cars out of the way. He didn't slam into them. Heavy fire on the top floor of an 8 or 9 story bldg., no evidence of water on the fire (no white smoke). Great job by the MPO. That's why they put big front bumpers on fire engines.}

It looks to me like the spot the MPO cleared was not for the engine but for the ladder. Look at the spot he cleared. Was he thinking "Truck gets the front of the building?" That A/D corner is right where the truck should be spotted to cover two sides of the building. Also as capt2102 said, heavy fire on the roof of a 9 story building with no water on the fire. It could be a roofing materials fire except that I think I heard a Sprinkler Gong ringing in the background. That means that there is fire below what you can see in the video. This is at least a 2-alarm fire, maybe a third. Do you think maybe the engine was leaving room for at least two trucks?

you got my interest, you have staffing for 4 pieces of apparatus, but the truck isn't a priority. If it is sometimes last, and sometimes not at all, you don't need water, you need firefighters.

A rule almost written in stone:

Truck gets the front of the building

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR DEPARTMENT IS BIG OR SMALL, the rule still stands

You can't do that if there are four engines blocking the way

It slices, it dices, it chops....

Remember those Ronco commercials? That stuff never worked well, did it?

Whenever you buy something that claims to do lots of things, it rarely does any one of those things well .

That's my feeling on quints.

Then somebody says "we have a quint, why do we need an engine?" And then POOF! The Lay-off Genie appears.

Up this way, until recently all we had was candle pin bowling so the balls aren't much bigger than a softball.

I should take that comment about bigger balls in NY and run with it, but I won't. Put a guy in a room full of fire and he won't care what city he's in.

Oh, I forgot Bowling balls would not work:

1. I don't think they will fit in the incinerator door.

2. They will burn. We had a run for smoke in the area which turned to be a guy burning his bowling ball on his BBQ grill. It looked like an oil pit fire.

The only thing I can think that might be somewhat related would be trash chute fire, but then I'd think the stakes would be high enough to warrant a hoseline or the bowling ball?

Correct For incinerators you used it somewhat like chimney chains. They were used as the line was being stretched. As for water, we had a Doohickey that went over the faucet (all incinerator closets had sinks) and had about 4 feet of rubber hose and a shower head. Handy little tools they were.

They went by the wayside when the EPA got rid of incinerators

Throw rope?

Nope on the throw rope

Chimney fires? Possible pre-cursor to the baggie of dry chem?

Getting warm, antique

Does anyone (other than snotty and I) remember when we used to carry gallon jugs of water with a rope attached?

Old timers, don't let out the answer.

What were they used for?

100 gal tank in the chiefs car, that will do it !

That would be great! Paint it white with dri-erase board paint and the side of the water tank becomes an IC Board. You won't have to put sandbags in the back for better traction in ice storms either.

In older areas, natural gas distribution was low pressure. Gas suppliers have been changing the mains to high pressure which involves sliding plastic pipe through older galvanized pipe for building service. A gas leak in the street has the possibility of seeping through the space between the old pipe and the new pipe and entering the building.

This is not to say it's the cause of gas explosions or the possible increase in odor-of-gas runs. I just wrote this so you are aware of this possibility.

1) More about force than weight. Was it designed to have force in that direction? A number of ladder failures in the past were when one side was against the building and the other was not, as you crawl out does the weigh shift multiply because of the "level" you have created?

That's one reason why replaceable tips came into existence. Also many depts. do not test or do not care.

We had a catastrophic ladder failure in the 1990's and the litigation was in our favor because it was being used as designed and we had 100% compliance with the manufacturers maintenance policies and a recertification test 4 weeks before the failure.

2) we still train with them (but have not carried them in over 30 years). And you climbed or went home.

Re: Pompier ladders: We used to practice with them but not carry them. Way back when we had rubber coats and "Johnny and Roy" helmets, we also had a Deputy Chief who decided training for a day would be Pompiers. He had us pull two Pompiers off a rig that was going to be cannibalized for parts and had sat out in the weather for about 6 months. Bnechis said "Climb or go home" were the two options, but we came up with a third. We refused to climb them because they were abused by the weather and not tested. We refused to climb them but agreed if we got tested ladders from the training center, we would climb them with no problem. It became pretty touchy, but the DC eventually saw the light.

Re: The Ladder Bridge: Bridging with a ground ladder was an acceptable practice for many years but I think that aerial-to-roof bridge is stretching the safety limits way too far. If you want to train on it (for that day you may have to use it), Why not do your risk/benefit calculation and come up with something with a little more common sense for training. How about aerial-to-3rd Floor Window instead of aerial-to-roof. From above add a belay line to a harness on the Firefighter. If you can find a tall building that abuts a shorter building, even better.

Ten codes are not considered common terminology except for 10-4, which is not a 10 code, but it is a word.

According ti the Cambridge Dictionary of Advanced Learning;

10-4 exclamation, Pronounced ten four;; An answer in the affirmative

I think this horse has been beaten beyond recognition. Yes 2 in 2 out is for our safety. Yes, we may stray from it under certain circumstances.

Yes Rit is 2-2's cousin and again for our safety. As far as I can see, straying from RIT rules is treading on dangerous turf because we have left our interior people out to dry.

Yes, a consolidated FD would do a world of good for Southern Westchester. As for Northern Westchester I believe the residents make enough money to support a paid department. Check out real estate values if you don't believe me.

One more thing to ponder:

A FF who gets 5 feet in the front door and makes a grab gets a medal. The guy that searches a whole house and finds no victim gets nothing. Who's task was more difficult, more dangerous?

I will say that the one time I was a RIT officer I tried the size up idea. I lost 2 of my 6 guys doing this because they were grabbed by a Chief on the other side of the building and sent inside the building. When I asked them what happened they said the Chief told them to do it so they followed his orders. To be fair they probably did not like being RIT and would take any excuse to get out of that assignment and that Chief was an old timer who did not fully understand RIT and frequently either reassigned a RIT or allowed a RIT to freelance. Which goes back to the original question of how we apply the concept.

This one is not a RIT problem, but a command problem. The Chief that "grabbed" them should have reported that to the IC.The "grabbed" RIT guys should have reported thatt ghange to their immediate suoperion or IC.

It may not have been your intention but this makes it sound as if the RIT/FAST must resist any tasks outside of an actual deployment? It is very common and taught by many, that the RIT/FAST may participate in proactive operations that do not compromise their ability to go to work (not overly demanding-physically, nearby and in communication and doesn't require breathing air). Most commonly, this means throwing ground ladders to ensure firefighter escape, removing locked obstructions for escape, etc. We all would love to be able to have enough personnel that these tasks could be otherwise effected, but if they cannot be completed do they then result in an actual RIT deployment vs. preventing the issue?

You are right. I was multi tasking and should have explained that there are functions that RIT can/should do. These items are all discussed in a RIT class, along with gathering tools and spare bottles, constant comms with IC, etc. I just didn't have time to put it all in one sentence or paragraph. Proof that you must train for this task and you can't do that in a short time. Agreed?

A recap for the guy in the street who have to put the fire out. Some are rules, some are things I learned along the way

RIT in a nutshell:

1. OSHA says if 2 are in, two must be out. Both must be qualifed as interior structural firefighters. This can be waived for a known rescue situation, but only temporarily

2. OSHA also says if there are more than 2 in, you still only need 2 out. Common sense says you must add to RIT team as conditions warrant.

3. Your RIT team is only for emergencies and is there only to protect the interior members. You cannot use them for other things.

4. If you use your RIT as noted in #3, you must establish a new RIT asap. Using RIT=call for an additional alarm

5 You can make a company RIT or more than one company RIT(appoint a RIT leader they are now a GROUP under ICS) They must all be interior qualified

6. Even if you go defensive, leave your RIT in place

7. A SCBA lasts about 20 minutes,.,,tops

8 One downed firefighter takes 2 companies to effect his rescue

This is and always was specifically addressed in the rules that a known rescue is cause to suspend the 2 out. This was tested or clarification was requested early on when FD's asked for greater latitude in what a "known rescue" was. As I recall the ruling or guidance was pretty clear that their needed to be true evidence of a trapped occupant vs. it's 3 am and there's a car in the driveway.

True, antique, that is the premise: But I will guarantee that OSHA, NIOSH, and the gang that wasn't there at your job will take that one line "true evidence of a trapped occupant" and beat you up with it. They will hit you with "how tenable were conditions, how rapid was the fire escalating and so on. And they will wind up saying things like "Didn't it occur to you that the baby was more or less dead even before the decision to enter was made?"

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.

Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.

But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.

If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody

The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I'm not a cop, so I might be in the dark (pun intended) on this subject, so I have a question.

Isn't it really, really hard to sneak up on the bad guy if you are riding around with flashing lights that lets the perp know you are coming?

Not to comment on what is the biggest, etc, but this one applies to Westchester Departments. When the USS (not SS) Constellation burned in the Brooklyn Navy Yard in 1960, SCBA's were just starting to be used by the fire service. Most commonly used at the time were things like OBA's, Chemox, and the like

FDNY had some Scott SCBA's and departments in Westchester had maybe one or two in their inventory.

FDNY put out a request for as many SCBA's as could be mustered. Southern Westchester departments gathered as many as they could and loaded them on Eastchester Rescue 5. I don't know who else was involved, but I know that my father responded to Brooklyn on R-5.

Just a historocal tidbit

The term n"nothing showing" is fine. Short sweet and to the point. It can be a helpful assesment in conjunction with other reports as well. Perhaps units operating at a 1sty. commercial taxpayer have a strong odor, an the OV Man gives a report from the rear that "nothing is showing", could it be bottomed up really tight? Could there be fire, just not visible, indicating that it is in an early decay (possibly very dangerous) phase?

Nothing showing is info, it means......there's nothing showing. At least for us, we wouldn't say "on scene, investigating", because they already know where on scene. Investigating, I'd think, is assumed. I don't think anyone's doing a cursory drive by.

Thank you, M'Ave

If I were able to "Beam you down, Scotty" into a room on fire and with a nozzle in your hand, I bet you couldn't tell me what city you are in. Hopefully, though, you would know what to do next.

I was promoted to first line supervisor (1977) before there was a FLIP school. That might be a good topic for discussion.

If I were able to "Beam you down, Scotty" into a room on fire and with a nozzle in your hand, I bet you couldn't tell me what city you are in. Hopefully, though, you would know what to do next.

I was promoted to first line supervisor (1977) before there was a FLIP school. That might be a good topic for discussion.

Thanks, Snotty, I knew somebody out there would bring up Education in The Fire Service. Way back when, before there was a FLIP, or for that matter, any formal education (except FDNY's Academy) there was a number of individuals who demanded education. My father went to the Delehanty Institute in NYC ni the late '50s. Then a new concept opened in Mount Vernon in about 1958. Imagine a course for firefighters taught by Manny Fried, FDNY who wrote the book on strategy and tactics.

The "nob" was then passed to guys like DC Oreste Spallone and Capt Seely Burigo who made Fire Science an Associate Degree course. Our education was now "official." We weren't done six or eight of us persuaded Mercy College to offer a BS Degree based on John Jay's curriculum and in 1977, I was proud to be in the first graduating class with a BS in Fire Science. Meanwhile, Doc Kiernan and a few Chiefs were working on a Career Chiefs Academy for new firefighters, then FLSS for new officers which was Statewide and Required.

Now, instead of taking 25 guys and burning things down (we called it "building a parking lot"), we can now take 150 guys, fighting a fire in a organized manner, and leaving fire buildings bruised but still standing. We also have better accountability, better equipment, and special teams like Hazmat, Tech Rescue, etc.

So what's my point in all of this? I sometimes hear of the new generation pointing fingers at prior generations saying today's way is better. Sure, it's better, but the new generation didn't make it better. It took a lot of work on the part of older generations to develop these innovations and hand them to today's firefighters.

You don't have to tell the old guys that they were doing things screwed up. They know that. That's why they changed things. Now, new generation, it's your turn to "take the nob." If you don't like something

change it, but remember, these things take time.

Oh, by the way, if you happen to run into an old guy, just tell him "thanks."