Newburgher

Based on how lean they run that department I think it is conceivable he will run medical calls, drive the ladder and clean the floors.

But, you have NO opportunity if you don't take the test...

VGFD had (2) Engines and (1) Truck for this fire which came in around 1:30 on a Tuesday (St. Patricks Day). Hate to say it, but that's a hell of a lot more than many Depts can get anytime nowadays. I am in NO way saying that is a good response, believe me. We strive to dump both our stations with full crews. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time unfortunately.
As far as having Newburgh come in M/A; They are very gracious. We (VGFD) have them on our boxes as our primary FAST for obvious reasons. It is rare that we would call upon NFD for an additional company because we know the strain it creates for them.
We try and release NFD as quickly as possible to get them back into the City.

Obviously with the commitment to maintain adequate coverage in the City in mind, Newburgh has not turned down any mutual aid request unless they have all their resources tied up. Like 201/65 has mentioned, Newburgh will hire back and staff additional apparatus (which can be manned relatively quickly) and/or use "staff" personnel to staff an additional apparatus.

I was thinking the same thing. Some response. Only thing missing was an air drop.

Must have been some house!

This was a real car. The NYSP had these, and before this Camaro, Mustangs for pursuit on the interstates. I saw them in the past on both I-84 and the Thruway (I-87).

This was a real car. The NYSP had these, and before this Camaro, Mustangs for pursuit on the interstates. I saw them in the past on both I-84 and the Thruway (I-87).

I remember the 5 liter mustangs. For some reason they seems that they were always assigned to a 6'4 or larger trooper.

Do we owe the public the truth about their fire depts. ability to handle a structure fire? What I mean by that is we ask the taxpayers for money to run the dept, yet in truth, on any given day at any given time, it takes more than THAT dept to control the situation. Forget career / volunteer bs, this is across the board. This is not about the big one or needing a tanker/tender shuttle operation, this is the room and contents, fire that your patch on your sleeve proudly says WE CAN HANDLE.
Mutual aid to cover the empty fire houses, no problem.
Why is it the neighboring taxpayers responsibility to send its tax dollar funded dept to assist with your BASIC fire.
something is wrong here, and the longer we put our heads in the sand......................

It was a stretch comparing E82 to spring valley and 6 fires a year. As Far as the building code violations? It sounds pretty bad in spring valley but this sort of thing happens everywhere.

"If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." - J.P.Morgan

"Being realistic with resources" Is that people or equipment? And with the people, does certification, training and ability count in that? I wasn't there, but I often hear armchair Incident Commanders saying this department should have been there, instead of this one. Not this incident specifically, but any large scale incident. It seems, sometimes, departments have to be honest with what they are really sending for mutual aid. This is something I run into a lot. You might have a rig come pulling in with 5 guys, but only one can even wear an airpack, making it a one man crew. I've never worked with the fire departments listed on this incident, but could this be part of what went on?

"Being realistic with resources" Is that people or equipment? And with the people, does certification, training and ability count in that? I wasn't there, but I often hear armchair Incident Commanders saying this department should have been there, instead of this one. Not this incident specifically, but any large scale incident. It seems, sometimes, departments have to be honest with what they are really sending for mutual aid. This is something I run into a lot. You might have a rig come pulling in with 5 guys, but only one can even wear an airpack, making it a one man crew. I've never worked with the fire departments listed on this incident, but could this be part of what went on?

Have to agree with "16fire5" on the extinguishment of wind driven fires. Was 1st due engine at a high-rise MD fire on Broadway, opposite the Lincoln Center plaza. Fire was on the 20th(?) floor in an apt. facing the west (Hudson River), started by a halogen torchire lamp, that fell on the bed. The maid opened all the windows to "get the bad smoke out";called bldg. maintenance; and wheeled the occupant (Lionel Hampton, the jazz musician) out,leaving the apt door open.Eventually the concierge called 911. My engine company was across the street on an EMS run, in a hotel, babysitting a dead body awaiting PD,when my MPO reported fire out the windows across the street from us. We ended up 2nd due, and stretched a 2nd standpipe line down the hall. The truck tried to breach a wall from the adjoining apt., with no luck. Anyway, it went to 5 alarms, with the 1st alarm engines getting 2nd degree burns. The 4th and 5th alarm engines, down from Harlem, busted our chops about the ghetto guys putting out our fire, but truth be told- they could only advance their line as fast as the contents burned away. You cannot put out a wind-driven fire if you are coming at it from the downwind side. The KO curtain /fire blanket would have been put to good use at that fire, but it was not yet in our "toolbox" of equipment/tactics. Sorry for the long-winded tale from an old retired guy! Still miss "the job" every day!

"Being realistic with resources" Is that people or equipment? And with the people, does certification, training and ability count in that? I wasn't there, but I often hear armchair Incident Commanders saying this department should have been there, instead of this one. Not this incident specifically, but any large scale incident. It seems, sometimes, departments have to be honest with what they are really sending for mutual aid. This is something I run into a lot. You might have a rig come pulling in with 5 guys, but only one can even wear an airpack, making it a one man crew. I've never worked with the fire departments listed on this incident, but could this be part of what went on?

"Being realistic with resources" Is that people or equipment? And with the people, does certification, training and ability count in that? I wasn't there, but I often hear armchair Incident Commanders saying this department should have been there, instead of this one. Not this incident specifically, but any large scale incident. It seems, sometimes, departments have to be honest with what they are really sending for mutual aid. This is something I run into a lot. You might have a rig come pulling in with 5 guys, but only one can even wear an airpack, making it a one man crew. I've never worked with the fire departments listed on this incident, but could this be part of what went on?

There is a member on this thread who is obviously intentionally trying to hijack threads and create conflict. He's made several inflammatory comments in other threads on other matters, and I just removed a post of his in the Somers Firehouse Fire Incident Alert thread trying to start the same argument he's trying to make here. He's been warned before about this behavior, but seemingly doesn't care. His behavior and assertions are offending numerous members of this forum, intentionally creating hostility, and taking threads off course. Therefore, his posts must be approved by a moderator prior to being seen by the general membership going forward. This isn't just one post were talking about, this is a pattern of behavior across different threads and it needs to stop. I don't care if people accuse me of censorship regarding this, something needs to be done since this type of repetitive behavior without regard for its consequences damages this forum and inhibits constructive and interesting discussion and dissemination of accurate information.
The dispatchers on duty at 60 Control did an excellent job during this overwhelming and unprecedented incident. Many people don't understand what it's like to work in a multi-jurisdictional multi-discipline communications center, and the complexities that come along with it on a normal day, let alone during something like this. This forum, and I, will not stand by them and not let a member purposely use this as a venue to try and tarnish and second guess such strong and solid work with such unfounded, unfair, and intentionally inflammatory claims.
I ask that this issue ends here, and constructive discussion regarding this incident resumes. If you have any concerns regarding this, please contact me.

"Bottom of Da Hill" - you keep accusing a dispatcher of just dispatching his department to an incident. Don't you think that he/she would have to answer to a Supervisor? How do you know someone didn't call on the phone and tell him/her who to send?
Do everyone a favor, STOP!!!! You are making your whole department look foolish,

Bottom of Da Hill give it a rest already! You are just making yourself look even more and more clueless. No one agrees with you here (how can you not see that?), no one with any education will agree with you here, and no one wants to read any more of your posts trying to hijack and ruin this thread with your personally biased, absurd claims of favoritism. I'm starting to suspect you're just upset your department wasn't called. Again, wrong incident, wrong thread, and wrong time to be making such stupid claims.

How many fire departments serve Spring Valley?
Would all of their first due fires be just in Spring Valley?
How about the ones they respond mutual aid to?
How many structure fire (fires involving a building) were there in 2014 in Spring Valley?
How many structure fires, not including relocations or standbys, did Spring Valley respond to under mutual aid?
It's 2015...there should be a better number for 2014 by now, not just "ballpark".

The problem that presents itself is a paradox. Not enough fires per square mile to justify full-time, paid fire departments (and the costs of benefits, retirement, etc.)...but not so few fires that we can just count our losses and ignore the problem entirely. Your typical volunteer crew of 5 guys (or gals), 2 or 3 who have a bit of experience and a level head on their shoulders can typically handle your run-of-the-mill calls for food on the stove, a residential lock-out, or a car into the ditch. But when there is a fire every 2-3 years and that crew of 3 or 5 guys simply will not suffice. They do the best that they can and either one guy makes a good call and puts the line in the right place to make a stop...or, they chase the fire from window to window around the house until it eventually goes out (we have all seen it). Either way, the fires happen so infrequently that the public doesn't even realize that there is a problem. There were 5 fires in my town (with 3 independent departments) in 2013-2014 and all 5 of the buildings (one of which was one of the firehouse) were heavily damaged if not completely destroyed by fire.
I think there is a serious problem with the volunteer fire service (at least in my area). The chiefs, officers, and members of the fire departments are hiding their manpower shortages in an effort to protect their department's longstanding tradition. They are afraid that, if the public knows how bad things really are, then they will be uprooted from their firehouses and replaced with paid firemen. The chief will lose his spot as chief (along with his power and his car), the men will lose their "clubhouse," and the longstanding tradition of the department that they enjoy so much will be a thing of the past. They will have, in their eyes, failed as a department...
I read a lot of articles about manpower shortages or interviews with chiefs where they consistently say things like "we can always use more volunteers and manpower is low at present but we continue to respond to every alarm." To me, this means that the chief goes to every alarm and one or two guys to the firehouse during the day to get a utility or mini-attack out the door. I know of many fire departments around that "respond to every alarm" where the chiefs all sign on, then go to the firehouse, get a rig, sign that rig on as well, and they have 5 units on the road but only have 3 people (Shhhh...it's a secret!). Again, the chief is cloaking the manpower problem by saying that they never miss a response. And, to the county it looks like they have stellar responses when in fact they don't.
Another way that departments hide their manpower shortages is by saying that they have "50 members on the roster" when, in reality, only 3-5 are very active. If you look at the websites of some of these departments under the "members" section they have tremendous lists of firefighters; but half of these people haven't been seen in more than 5 years. On the department's website for my town (of which I was previously a member) there are a few people listed as members who are dead (NOT EVEN KIDDING!). So when the town supervisor or a concerned citizen looks at the website and see all those names they think everything is great, when, in reality, it is just a facade.
Lastly, I always hear chiefs in the paper saying "we averaged 15 people per alarm last year (month, week, etc.)". How many of those people are qualified interior firefighters? I know that when I was a member, the Chief would tell the fire district every month that the department "averaged 12 members per call the previous month." 4 of the 12 were fire police in their '80s who came to every call; 3-4 of the 12 were junior members; and the rest were the chiefs and a few stragglers per call. Again, this "average" number is an illusion to hide the fact that departments these days just don't cut it.
I think fire chiefs and fire departments are coming up with inventive ways to hide manpower shortages because the solution to the problem is not desirable to them. They are stalling because they think things will get better on their own (I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "manpower comes in waves") where, in reality, you might get a good year or two with the addition of a few good members but the fact of the matter is that manpower has been on a steady decline for years. The real solution to the problem is going to eventually be the addition of a few paid chauffeurs to get the trucks out during the day, then eventually going to full-time staffing during the day. Then the volunteers can take over at night when there are more guys around who come home from work. But, the longer the volunteer leadership can hold off the better because they get to hold on to their little men's club and the pride of 100 years of service by their organization. They don't want the intrusion of paid firefighters in their space, they don't want paid vs. volunteer battles, they don't want union issues, and they don't want to be thrown out. Firefighting is fun and those of us who love it really enjoy doing what we do. If they bring in career firefighters, the volunteers won't get to do what they love to do anymore, be firemen. So they have to hide it to hold on to their job. Hopefully, no one will have to lose their life to evince change like we see everywhere else on this job!

Not with that dumpster hanging off the end

Not sure of NJ Code, but strictly following NFPA it's likely this complex cold have had an NFPA 13R system (residential up to 4 stories), which allows for fewer heads and excludes more areas, than the full NFPA 13 systems used in older or larger (height) buildings. I know we're fighting to ensure that 13R at the minimum is used in Townhouses for this reason, as once the fire gains any headway it overcomes the lesser Life Safety systems. If the fire started in an unprotected void (likley allowed in 13R) then the fire has plenty of fuel to overcome the 4 head design flow. We know sprinklers can be defeated, but with a fully functional properly designed full 13 system, I'd think the FD would have a much greater chance of making a stop before it grew way out of hand.