bigrig77

Great topic Chief==I think that most Fire Departments should take a real close look at them selves in a mirror and see what they see. Are they stuck in the 70's or 60's or worse yet 50's. We see time after time departments buying bigger--bigger--biggest--bester things. We all realize that especially in the volunteer service there is a erosion of manpower. In the career side its do more with less-- basically it's the same thing. How do we get everyone into the 21st century is the question.. better recruitment? incentives? training? community involvement?? getting home to our loved ones is a priority --- as I say in my classes---you didn't start the fire--- you joined to help your community. you cant do that if your not trained properly. 5 points I strive for -- get there--get there safely--do your job--do your job the best you can--get home to your loved ones.
I guess the answer might be in full disclosure. I once knew a Fire Chief that every meeting he went to stated that he did not have sufficient manpower.
So Chief there is not easy answer to your question just more questions

You sir, have nailed it. Everyone going home is not the only metric for success on the fireground. Unfortunately we've conditioned too many Chiefs/Officers to believe this is the case.

All dependent on the service your town expects from its fire department. You get some of these tiny towns out west in the middle of nowhere, where you get 2 guys in traffic vests and hard hats because the community contracts its "fire service" out to a couple of yokels in a wagon from 1950 that barely runs.
Are most of our politicians/residents ignorant to the level of service their fire departments actually provide in comparison to what they're paying for it? Absolutely. But I'll bet the same happens for the police, DPW, and education services as well.
All that being said, you're absolutely right. Its not a career/volunteer issue if you have a 100% union career department that only has 5 guys split between an Engine, Truck and Ambulance? Guess what, you can't handle a fire without mutual aid. If you have a volunteer department with 3 stations, 4 engines, 2 rescues, 2 ladder trucks, and 9 Chief cars, but you can only get 6 guys for a fire at noon on a Tuesday, 5 of which are old enough to collect social security? Same deal.
I'm not sure if its reasonable for a town of 10,000 people to pay for enough staffing for a full NFPA-compliant response of 12-14 Firefighters for a residential structure fire. (Source) All the more reason to consolidate to one combination department. Less equipment, standardized training and SOPs, and you ensure that everyone in the area gets the same level of service for their dollar.

Do we owe the public the truth about their fire depts. ability to handle a structure fire? What I mean by that is we ask the taxpayers for money to run the dept, yet in truth, on any given day at any given time, it takes more than THAT dept to control the situation. Forget career / volunteer bs, this is across the board. This is not about the big one or needing a tanker/tender shuttle operation, this is the room and contents, fire that your patch on your sleeve proudly says WE CAN HANDLE.
Mutual aid to cover the empty fire houses, no problem.
Why is it the neighboring taxpayers responsibility to send its tax dollar funded dept to assist with your BASIC fire.
something is wrong here, and the longer we put our heads in the sand......................

Date: 2-18-15
Time: 16:30hrs
Location: 39 Locust Hill Ave C/S Baldwin Place
District: Yonkers
Weather: 26 degrees, clear
Units:
Yonkers FD 1st Alarm: Engine 303, Engine 307, Engine 309, Engine 310, Engine 312, Engine 313, Squad 11
Ladder 72, Ladder 73, Ladder 74, Tower Ladder 75, Rescue 1, Battalion 2, Battalion 1, Car 2 (IC),
Car 6-Fire Investigator, Mask Service Unit, Rehab Trailer
2nd Alarm: Engine 313, Ladder 74
3rd Alarm: Engine 308, Engine 304, Tower Ladder 71
Empress EMS
Yonkers OEM
Yonkers PD

New Rochelle FD Engine 22, Ladder 12, Car 2309 (Relocate Yonkers FD Station 12 Fortfield Ave)
Greenville FD Squad 15 (Relocate Yonkers Station 13 Kimball Ave)
Eastchester FD Ladder 15 (Relocate Yonkers Station 13 Kimball Ave)

Description: Heavy fire from the upper floors of a 3 story 30x50 wood frame occupied multiple dwelling
Updates:

16:40hrs Battalion 2 transmitting 2nd alarm.

16:47hrs Battalion 2 reporting going to master streams
17:05hrs Car 2 reporting resuming interior operations
17:57hrs Car 2 3rd Alarm requested, Engine 304 requested to bring additional water supply into scene
18:16hrs Locust Hill Command reporting main body of fire knocked down all hands still working
18:32hrs Locust Hill Command reporting fire darkening down, partial collapse of building, structural integrity in question
20:29hrs Locust Hill Command reports fire has been knocked down and overhauled. Units beginning to pick up hose.

Notes:
Some first due units were committed to other assignments when this job was initially dispatched, therefore skewing normal unit assignment order.
Writers: x635, PHIL78
Hit "LIKE" below if you liked this IA ---------------------\/\/\/\/\/\/

ok, Maybe in the writers area or mind the fire service is alive and vibrant. From what I see, the fire service is in deep trouble. Volunteer membership is declining, career depts. are being cut to the bone, or are stagnant.
I believe todays firefighters are much better trained, and are more dedicated than previous generations. But there are not enough of them to fill the voids, at least in our area. Due to the increase in call volume, training, state and federal mandates, the fire service is finding itself hard pressed to keep up with todays conditions. We have too many Commissioners, Chiefs, and elected individuals, who are more worried about money and votes than fixing a broken system. A house fire today requires mutual aid. when there was more members in the dept. there was pride in taking care of your own business.
State and federal mandates, Bailout systems, 2 in 2 out, fast, NFPA, have been enacted to create a safer fire ground, But no more ff's to do the job. The patch on your uniform says XYZ fire dept, yet the truth is XYZ plus 5 surrounding depts. is what is needed for your average house fire. The writer doesn't like the bashing, but what is actually being bashed? the truth? The public is fed up with high taxes. Police depts. are consolidating, At some point, somehow the laws will have to change to allow fire depts. to do the same. Then and only then, at least in this area, will fd's be as alive and vibrant as the writer states.
This is just my opinion, let the bashing begin lol.

Back to what's wrong with the site, there are lots of good criticisms and ideas to make things better, but we are just talking amongst ourselves and none of the ideas ever seems to get to someone who can effect change.
We all know the volunteer departments are hurting, especially ems. You just have to monitor the scanner and hear the re-tones to know that. Why don't officials from local governments know what is happening? Are the Chiefs too proud to talk about the problem?
I was a volunteer for 37 years. I stared in ems when it was still Red Cross first aid training and I became one of the first EMT's in my department when that program was first introduced back in the early 70's. But over the years things have changed both with fire and ems and I don't think it is possible to balance job, family and fire/ems anymore and be truly proficient at each.
My Grandfather was Hope Hose, my father Hope Hose and Hilltop and my myself, my brothers and their sons Scarborough. I believe my nephews to be the last generation of a 100% volunteer department. We used to go out to reported fires, now departments go out for 'lock-outs'. People used to take themselves to the emergency room, now an ambulance is dispatched for a 'not feel well'. Call volumes for less than true emergencies have skyrocketed and for volunteers its a problem. You shouldn't pick and choose, but when the alarm comes in at 3:00 AM for New Dorm at Pace, you know damn well its another microwave popcorn call and you will get turned around if you even make it to the firehouse before the call is cancelled.
I know that the paid guys will say, what if it isn't the popcorn? Well that is one big difference between paid and volunteer. You are already at the station, dedicating a specific period of time to respond to calls. You are not already at your 'regular' job, getting prepared for work, taking care of children, whatever you may be doing at any time of the day or night and have to stop and go out the door to a call, 90% or more that will be unnecessary because of either our increased Nanny State mentality of our fear of legal liability for not answering a call initiated by some electronic device somewhere. Gone too are the days of the police checking it out before dispatching additional services.
So, I don't see call volume decreasing so I see increased demands on time for calls and time for training. Firefighting is a young persons job and today there are a lot more demands on young people who are dealing with getting an education and a job, starting a family and giving back the time to devote to fire/ems is more difficult. I think that it is inevitable for volunteer departments to have to transition to, initially some paid, especially days, and eventually to paid. I also feel that a County department is the answer and I don't want to hear about the law.
Change the laws if they need to be changed, Apparently you only need three people in Albany to do anything so how hard can it be. I have been in the South for almost 10 years and in both the towns I have lived in they were covered by the County for Sheriffs, Fire and EMS. The larger cities still had their own, but the rest of the towns and villages were covered by the County with a lot fewer stations and apparatus than cover Westchester. And, Palm Beach County has 30% more people and 5X the area of Westchester.
Some who haven't been around that long won't remember that the County PD used to be the Parkway PD. They embarked on an expansion and redefinition of themselves and have emerged as a major player in law enforcement.
Is there no public safety committee within the State and/or County legislatures that is willing to take on the problems in fire/ems? These are life and death issues that you would think demand some attention from our elected officials.
Oh, by the way, there is no Nirvana, my current County (Marion) department is losing personnel at an alarming rate to other City and County departments that pay better. Firefighter/Emts are making about $10-$12 dollars an hour and the local County officials refuse to address the issue because they can't find the money without raising taxes. And Palm Beach (City) is bitching that the County is poaching the City's firefighters after the City has spent the money to train them.
Let's come back this next year. Nothing will have changed. In the end, it's all politics.

I will play devil's advocate here and wonder why no one seems to want to acknowledge the downsides of consolidation.
Here are some that I know of, all of these coming from real life experiences with the centralized dispatch point in our county.
1. Lack of accountability. With the local dispatch centers there is better accountability in that if a dispatcher makes a mistake, the fire or EMS chief can go to the police chief and have the tapes pulled and appropriate corrective action taken. With the centralized center, any complaints that are submitted get dropped into the memory hole and you hear the same dispatchers making the same mistakes over and over again.
2. Lack of accountability (part 2). Local dispatchers follow local protocols designed by the agencies they service. Centralized dispatch follows their own protocols. Don't like it? tough, deal with it.
3. Loss of local knowldege: Even with all of the computerized maps and reference sources, there are some situations that you can't beat local knowledge
4. Competition for air time. With budgets being the way they are, this is a very real concern as you could end up with too few dispatchers listening to too many channels. Also could happen because of poorly designed radio systems trying to put too many departments on too few frequencies or talk-groups.
Now, I am not against consoldiation per say. But it needs to be done correctly, and after careful study to see if it is really the best option

As I mentioned in another thread, why is the radio communication system in Westchester County is over-complex? I understand that there are a lot of cities and jurisdictions that want things to work the way they want, but it seems to me that everything here is a bit overboard when it comes to the radio/dispatch systems.
The first big thing I'd like to focus on is the need for TWO SEPARATE RADIO SYSTEMS. Why? We get dispatched low band, respond and talk from car to car via trunk, and operate on fire ground low band channels. Can we not find a way to use the trunk system to dispatch? Can we not use the ground ops channels instead of FG1 through 8?
And why do so many departments choose not to be dispatched by 60 Control? Wouldn't a consolidated e911 system work for us?
The way I see it is that the trunk system has all of the technology to do what we need it to do, which is COMMUNICATE (albeit I don't know if you can be dispatched on it....refer to the question above). I just find it ridiculous that the radio communication system for Westchester County is incredibly complex. I'd really love some good answers on this, because this has been boggling my mind for almost seven years now.

Well guys after 43 years as a Port Chester Firefighter [ 18 years very active volunteer working at DPW then getting the dream job getting paid to do what I love to do this is my last day. It didn't end the way I wanted it too but away I go . I was fortunate to catch the war years when we went out every day for a job worked side by side with many dept.'s and made a lot of life long friends on mutual aid. I saw a lot of death and sorrow [ Gulliver's 24 DOA Stouffer's 26 DOA 9/11 world trade center ] and saved a few along the way but my greatest call was closing a large window [ life savers building ] for a 84 year old lady who was freezing because her window was open and she needed help. The next day she baked a apple pie for me and my partner. So I say good bye to it all and hope that I left a small mark somewhere. To my 2 sons that are following or trying to follow in my foot step's keep up the good work in this most rewarding profession . Good luck to the guy's that are left on my job and hope that thing's get better for you and the people we were sworn to protect.
Angelo Sposta [ Retired Local #1971 ]

All should be free, period!

Suffolk County Police Department was $100 ten years ago. Can only guess how much its now. $25 fee isn't cutting anymore. Everything has gone up in cost, from the proctors to the paper to the amount of money the schools are charging to allow them to open on the weekends. They can make it $200 fee people will still line up to take the exam.

The amount of money some guys have thrown away on exams over the years is brutal. That $100 fee isn't worth it in my book unless you have residency or a major hook somewhere. Good luck to those taking it!

Just curious, how many FD's hired off the open list last exam ? I only know of Scarsdale and Hartsdale taking non-residents. $100 is a lot of money to be ignored for not being related to a Chief/ Commissioner.

No problem, Sharpton might think that going from the unofficial Deputy Mayor to Police Commissioner is a demotion, but I’m sure he is willing to take one for the team.

Read on Internet that NYPD has experienced problems with lug nuts removed or loosened on parked radio cars and ever parked MOS private vehicles parked near their Command. Something to watch out for.

Today in New Rochelle the " I Can't Breath" rally and march was postponed. I'll tell you can't breath---Those two cops in Brooklyn

The question remains, can NYC survive for three more years under this administration ???

President Carter and Mayor Dinkins can now rest easy knowing that 2 bigger tools have taken the heat off of them for being the worst leaders in the history of the US and NYC. President Obama and Mayor DeBlasio are top of my tool list!!!

They are simply following the leaders they have. Mayor Douche bag turned his back on them and now it's time to reap the seeds the Mayor has sowed. All the years of blood and sweat the NYPD put in under the greatest Mayor of all time is for naught. Good job a$$hole!!!

It seems that it's the same story in other combo depts.one half either lost interest,or just don't have the time,and the other is left holding all the cards and run short handed and the politicians don't want to compensate for the lack of manpower. They play Russian roulette with the staff and the residents.

About time someone pulled the curtain back to expose the charade. How many other departments in the county can't meet the NFPA or OSHA standards for minimum staffing yet think they're OK?

They're still not going to be sending enough if they hire four whole guys. Wow.
Just kicking the can down the road. Sooner our later our luck is going to run out and there's going to be a 100% preventable tragedy. We will all call the unwitting victims "hero" and don our spiffy parade uniforms to salute their hearse but we won't fight against the problem that's making them vulnerable now. It's a travesty.

A ceiling simulator???????????????

There is a breathe down exercise where you need to complete 8 stations while on air. It is pass/fail. If you fail, you will not complete the class. They expect some people to fail. Also, you need to have first aid/CPR/AED as prereq's. That's the word our county put out. I think it is a good thing

Are you referring to the "agility test" that is required to get into the class? If so I think it is a great idea.