Dinosaur

Did this team ever get trained and formally certified or did it die like so many other ideas for emergency services?

This isn't the forum for such a question.  There's really no guidance you can get from us keyboard commandos without specific information, the kind of information that (a) doesn't belong here and (b) could reveal the identity of the agency or person.  

Suffice it to say that terminating a union employee is not taken lightly and there are statutory and contractual considerations before it can happen.  Most jobs don't want to get it reversed in court so they're very careful about taking such drastic action so they must have dotted the i's and crossed the t's.  

On 7/31/2017 at 0:47 AM, 16fire5 said:

So it's pretty common elsewhere in the country to have teams made up of volunteers to handle the rescues of lost hikers and the other tech rescues that present themselves in the parks that have become more common.  These teams exist in places where all the fire departments are fully career and they work together on responses.  

 

An example.  

http://www.malibusar.org/Home.aspx

 

 

 

There's a big difference between searching for and "rescuing" a lost hiker and performing a technical rescue on a construction worker buried up to his neck in a collapsed excavation.  Response time for one.  Unless there's a blizzard coming, lost people can wait for a voluntary team to be assembled and mobilized.  Not so with many technical rescues. 

Breakneck Mountain has been in the news a lot lately.  How will this team benefit western Putnam, specifically to respond to Breakneck, when it's going to be based out of Carmel and staffed with people in Brewster and Carmel?  How will they get there? By POV with a blue light?  Absurd!

Our system is flawed.  It's been failing for decades but we just keep putting bandaids on it. 

This is not unique to Yonkers.  Where does all the 2% money go everywhere else????
 

On 3/15/2017 at 11:36 PM, dwcfireman said:

Now, let me drop this question on everyone:  WHAT IF, and this is a strong IF, an incoming president was a firefighter (let's say a volunteer for the sake of the argument).  After this firefighter is done being POTUS, would the Secret Service allow him/her to respond to emergencies?  Think about it...If you were the President, and you're a volunteer firefighter, AND you need 24/7 security protection, can you still be a firefighter after the completion of your term(s)?  I'm picturing a Secret Service agent nervously masking up with an ex-President that has the knob and is screaming, "Let's rock and roll!"

Considering the median age of former presidents the likelihood that any would be an active volunteer firefighter is slim. 

Further, considering the manner in which our presidential candidates are selected, unless Harvard or Yale starts a volunteer FD, I don't think we're going to see any volly presidents in our lifetimes.

Asinine.  Put more troopers in the city with almost 40K cops.  Meanwhile, on the Sprain, Taconic, 684, 84, etc. your wife may wait for an hour before seeing a trooper if her car breaks down and rush hour is like the autobahn.

When is his term up?

Part time = no benefits, no pension, no real job security.

Well done, Patterson!  Well done!  (/sarcasm)

They gotta stop drying them on high after the car wash!

On 9/21/2016 at 2:09 PM, EMSLt said:

If 60 Control, as part of Westchester Government, at an agencies request or on their own, repeatedly uses a single commercial provider for VAC's that can't get out the door, then doesn't that type of activity require a RFP/RFQ?  And this isn't mutual aid, it's a grey area band aid fix that is becoming routine several times a day activity.  If New Rochelle, White Plains, etc all have to go through the bid process for EMS providers, then why aren't all commercial providers afforded the opportunity for the business? Or does it fall under exisiting flycar contracts?

On 9/21/2016 at 8:19 PM, EMSLt said:

My question is more how is the County, or select municipalities, are technically awarding business that in other sectors of government would have to go out to a competitive bid?  For example, a VAC can't get out.....a commercial provider who has the ALS contract advises 60 Control they have a BLS unit available, and then 60 Control assigns the call to that commercial provider skipping over retones (which we know don't work) and the next up mutual aid. Routinely. 

I think you're stretching the role of 60-Control and it's basis in government to suit a gripe you have with a commercial provider picking up the slack for a volunteer agency that can't get out the door.  60-Control isn't "awarding business", they're using agencies that already have a DOH CON to operate in Westchester to cover 911 calls that volunteers can't cover. 

Instead of being pissed off that the commercial company is doing 911 calls without an RFP or competitive bid (which is absurd in an emergency by the way) you should be pissed at the agency or agencies that can't get out the door themselves and is creating this mess.

60-Control is a dispatch center.  They don't set the dispatch policy for local communities.  If the local communities are OK with the coverage by a commercial provider instead of toning out another volunteer agency that may not get out the door, why does it matter?  If Town X doesn't want 123 Ambulance coming into their town when they don't get out the door I'm sure they'll call 60 and give them an earful.

Who should be next up on mutual aid?  Or are you saying that there is a mutual aid run card that isn't being used?  If that's the case then the gripe is the home agency and if they're not griping.... why are you?

Back to the subject of lights and sirens, the two Con Ed guys I was speaking to today said the "Incident Response Unit" or "Emergency Command Unit" or whatever they may say are most likely members of the Emergency Response Group.  They have 'em in gas, electric, steam and substations.  None of them are authorized to have red lights or sirens but, just like we have some people with "extra" bells and whistles, some of these guys may have additional lights.  These are the guys that will hold the fort until more crews can arrive and they're trained in ICS and are the SME from their part of the company.  The substations guys are trained in firefighting at TEEX and deal with the oil filled transformer fires and other big events like that.  They can all set up one of the Con Ed ICS command boards and be your point of contact until more help arrives. 

On 9/21/2016 at 0:17 PM, fdce54 said:

First of all, I spent 42 years working for Con Ed in the Bronx and Westchester with the last 14 in Westchester as a supervisor in gas emergency until I retired last year. I responded to countless gas leak complaints both as a mechanic and as a supervisor. I am also a volunteer firefighter in Orange county. For me personally, the last thing I wanted to see is the fire dept on location when I arrived. They don't have the required equipment or training mandated by the PSC or the experience to investigate a leak. If it's on fire, I don't want anybody else than the fire dept but unfortunately the majority of firefighters lose interest quickly if it's not on fire. Then the paid depts. want to put the companies back in service asap and the volley companies in the day time Mon-Fri had what we call the paid firefighters responding, ie, the DPW members and their boss wants them back to work. So I would just prefer Con Ed to respond and if I need the services of the fire dept, I would request the FD.  At a damage that I responded to one time with the fire dept on location and blowing gas, the chief in charge told me they had shut off numerous valves to no good. I asked him how many valves and where they were. I got the deer in the headlights look back. I then went over and turned off the curb valve on the damaged service and secured the leak. They had turned off gas to numerouse homes and business, over 50. Restoration of gas is not simply turning the valves back on and is time consuming and costly.  A little info on responding. The New York State PSC mandates that all gas leak complaints must be responded to within 60 minutes. Con Ed has told the PSC that they will respond to 75% of the leak complaints within 30 minutes. That works well in the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens but can be difficult in Westchester. Con Ed will request the fire dept to respond if certain criterias of the leak complaint require it but the understanding is that it is to make safe by evacuating people in the area of the leak not to mitigate it.  The finest example of that was the damage in Scarsdale about 10 years ago where the contractor pulled the 1" high pressure service out of the regulator in the bsmt with ensuing high pressure gas filling up the house. The contractor called 911 and reported it but he did not evacuate his workers from the bldg. When the Scarsdale FD arrived, they evacuated the house where the damage was and the surrounding houses also. They opened windows in the house where the damage was to ventilate but being a cold day, the temperature dropped in the house and the thermostat called for heat and the house exploded but there were no injuries. Job well done. What would the outcome have been if they decided to look for valves? The curb valve was buried under construction material, main valves were further away in the intersections at the end of the street and can be and usually are difficult to open. In many older areas main valves can be much further apart than just in the immediate intersections and many are paved over. I was working the night of a gas main fire in Mamaroneck the night of a severe thunderstorm that took down a primary electric cable which grounded out on the ground burning a hole through a 4" steel medium pressure main that was four feet deep in the ground and igniting the gas. Such is the power of primary electric. Looking at our maps, I saw the location of the main valve but could not locate it, only a water valve. I had my construction crew start excavating in the area of where the main was (it was a one way feed down a dead end street) and had my two leak responders start searching for surrounding main valves to secure this leak and fire, a total of five more valves. While we were trying to locate theses valves, the water company responded to mark out the water main and services. After about 45 minutes, he came over to me and stated they did not have a water main any where near where the water valve box was. I had my crew open up that box to see if it was our gas main valve but it was filled with asphalt. I had my crew excavate that box down to the valve and it was our gas valve which we then shut to secure the leak and extinguish the fire. That took 2 1/2-3 hours to do from our time of arrival. Definitely unacceptable in my book and I spent the next hour apoligizing to the chief who was a genuine nice guy. It turned out the road had been repaved about 2 years prior. The contractor had damaged the gas valve box, did not report it and replaced it with a water valve box he had. You never know what you will find. Now back to the Scarsdale incident.  If I recall correctly, the FD said from the time of their arrival to the explosion was about 5 minutes. The first Con Ed responder, a supervisor, was able to locate and t/off the curb valve stemming the gas that was feeding the fire. As I stated earlier, the PCS does not want code 3 response and I personally did not want code 3 response having driven fire dept rigs code 3 and knowing the dangers. So my opinion and the way I understood the policy, the fire dept is to evacuate and make safe. 

Great insight.  I was talking to two Con Ed guys today and they echo your sentiment that the last thing the FD should be doing is turning valves in the street.  They may inadvertently turn off a transmission main instead of the distribution main supplying the house in question and that could impact THOUSANDS depending on where it is.  They also said that they've been finding valve boxes completely paved over, not just hidden by errant water valve boxes. 

Just like we shouldn't climb poles to disconnect power lines, we shouldn't be messing with gas infrastructure.  The results could be costly both in time and money and public safety.

In my 35 years I never had a complaint with the response time of Con Ed responders, especially gas crews.

If the water department is requested on a rush for a water main break or Con Ed electric is requested for down wires on a rush, should they all have emergency lights and sirens too?

Sorry for the sarcasm but there are all ready too many vehicles with red lights and sirens.  Adding more won't help us get anywhere and it isn't about what an IC wants.  It's what the law says.  There's no provision in law for utility vehicles to be emergency vehicles.

The fire department is already there, they responded with lights and siren.  They can make the scene safe until Con Ed arrives whether within 14 minutes or 40 minutes.

38 minutes ago, AFS1970 said:

 

Yet how many threads right here in EMTBravo are about response times and who gets to the fire faster? Would we really be willing to accept a delay instead of a disaster, and then what are we going to consider a disaster? Is a lost life due to a slow response any more or less of a lost life due to a seat belt free collision? I do not pretend to know the answers to these questions but we need to discuss them before we can discuss adapting the high standards of the aviation industry.

 

I should also point out that while the aviation industry does have high standards, there is a TV show called Air Disasters and no similar show called Firefighting Disasters.

The aviation industry has made great strides in improving safety since the advent of crew resource management.  We don't need a show called firefighting disasters, we have the news for that.  We see our failures live and in person right on the evening news.  I hope your comments are tongue in cheek but they smack of the arrogance in the fire service that is above being criticized.  Right now we desperately need some constructive criticism. 

Delays due to not meeting any kind of standards or because we don't have a plan or procedure for response are inexcusable.  Delays due to a safe response are not delays at all.  If you think it is correct to drive fast through intersections and not wear a seatbelt, first of all please be an organ donor but second of all, the seconds saved are negligible.  That's simple fact and is borne out by studies every year.

Response times because it takes 10-15 minutes to staff the apparatus is a topic for response time thread.  Not it took them 4.5 minutes to drive from the house to the scene. 
Responses with less than a full crew are a topic for response thread. 

I'm probably more pissy than usual today because nowadays the only time I wear my old class A's is for funerals and memorial services but the airline industry admitted they had a problem!

27 minutes ago, AFS1970 said:

Not entirely about NYC DEP but I am not in favor of agencies copying other agencies livery. I think each agency needs to develop its own identity, what in commercial circles would be called brand identity. I realize there are traditional colors and there are only so many designs to use, but why must everything be sanitized into a single logo. We see it all the time in patches, where a department is willing to part with their own history to look just like some department they want to emulate. I am not a fan of this way of thinking.

I disagree.  I think all police cars should be the same - different patches, fine - but I happen to like knowing that when I am visiting California I'm looking at a police car and not a taxi.  State law in CA has all police cars black and white and even specifies that there have to be certain lighting combinations to insure they are recognized as a police vehicle. 

There's no rhyme or reason here in NY.  At all.

36 minutes ago, nfd2004 said:

Just as a point of interest.

 

Last month, August, 2016, the FDNY had (Unofficially) 166 All Hands Fires. Fires ONLY. This Excludes any all hands operating for things such as Haz Mat incidents, MVAs, Water Rescue, Confined Space Rescue etc.

 

  In addition City Wide there were:

   8 - Second Alarms

   2 - Third Alarms

   1 - 4th Alarm

   1 - 5th Alarm

   1 - 6th Alarm

That's more fire load than most places will see in a decade (or longer) and that was just one month!  Crazy.

At a fire call, the transmission of "all-hands" results in the addition of a rescue company and squad company to the box.  They may or may not be assigned on transmission of a 10-75.  It also serves as a heads-up that everyone is working for incoming resources or those that may be "next" due.

At a non-fire, it simply indicates that everyone is engaged in some capacity.  I believe, and it has been many years since dealing with it, on non-fires it is simply informational.

Yes, it will hit us or it will miss us. 

Now I can be a meteorologist.

On 8/2/2016 at 2:41 PM, STAT213 said:

That makes zero sense. But it's motivated by politics, not common sense. 

 

Riddle me this. Why is it that departments think that one engine and one truck is enough manpower for an extra alarm? 

 

You're calling for more help. Why not call for ENOUGH help? 

There isn't "ENOUGH help" in any Westchester County department anymore.  I don't care if it's paid or volunteer; the first due doesn't meet NFPA1710 or 1720 anywhere but perhaps Yonkers and even Yonkers has been cut back. 

At this fire and at most other fires there is no staging of additional resources; everyone is working and then they put the FAST to work so there's NOBODY left if something untoward happens.  There should be some resources available at the scene to go to work when it gets ahead of you.  We don't do that and it's going to bite us in the rear one of these days.  Luck only lasts for so long.

As for 1&1 on additional alarms, when it's all you can get...  It's what it is my friend. 

Contrary to this experience, consider the recent fire in Staten Island that went to a 6th Alarm.  I would guess that's close to 250 FDNY members.  How many did Bronxville have on their 4th?  Or even on the initial response.

The system is broken but nobody, and I mean nobody, will say that the emperor has no clothes!

So what finally put the fire out?

It's a damn shame this thread is getting so little attention.  This should be a big wake-up call for every department to take a few minutes and do an honest, objective self-assessment to answer "can this happen to us?"

For younger FF coming up, this should be a heads-up that if someone is telling you to do something that doesn't seem right you should confirm it.  And if you don't have the training, don't do it! 

The old attitude "new guys / young ones need to keep the eyes open and mouths shut" has no business in today's fire service.  Have a questioning attitude.  Not to be obnoxious but to learn and make sure you're doing it right. 

Sadly we can't assume that the senior guys - or even all the officers - are leading by example.

Before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that we all do it wrong, I'm saying we can always do it better!  Be smart, be safe, and live to fight another day!

Well, this just adds to the black eye that the PCFD has already suffered. 

As if the violations aren't bad enough, the allegation of falsifying an incident report and insurance claim are particularly troubling.  It seems that Chief Quinn can't keep himself out of trouble.

3 hours ago, nfd2004 said:

 

 Is there a difference between someone who attended a Firefighter I class or somebody who completed a fulltime, 14-16 week, fire recruit school training ? Of course there is. And anybody involved in the fire service, should realize that.

 

Just as an EMT can save lives the same as a doctor can, the EMT was NOT required to meet the same requirements as that doctor. Does a security guard have the same training as a police officer ? No, but in each one of these positions, there is a mutual respect for each other for similar duties. There is a mutual respect and an understanding between these groups. Yet they all represent some very different training and educational requirements. They depend on each other as well.

 

Bad analogy.  The best analogy would be the volunteer EMT compared to the "career" "paid" EMT.  Both receive the same training and hold the same certification.  All security guards in NYS receive the same training and certification from NYS as do police officers but they are not the same.  That's unfortunately not the case with firefighter training in NYS!

Sue Suez for withholding the information and/or demand that the PSC require it be provided.  It seems very disingenuous to have critical data withheld by a regulated utility.

9 hours ago, Bnechis said:

Unfortunately, the PSC holds a higher level of authority than the DOS and they ignor this code. 

Sue 'em!  It's a safety issue and the PSC should really stop ignoring things like NFPA.

On a side note, who says that PSC trumps DOS?  Is that statutory or just the laissez faire bureacracy in Albany failing us yet again?

5 hours ago, FD7807 said:

County as a wbole has a majority of volunrerr departments. Dont believe me but the facts are the facts. 58 fire departments in WC

So the county has 58 departments.  We can debate the logic and necessity of that for days without ever resolving it.  Does it need 58?  Does the number of departments have some significance to fire growth?  I think not.

Population drives demand so dismissing population considerations is flawed reasoning.