Atv300

Uhhh....if you're going to the roof, you get off the rig with a pack on, get the ladder up and bring your saw up.

You wear the pack on your back but if you're on air for this again you're a yard breather and are less of a ff then the exterior driver who has got tools out ready and ladders thrown to windows. But I forget there's no such thing as a need for support personnel everyone should be able to go interior so when guys get injured or they can't go interior they should be thrown out with the rest of the rejected that cannot be interior. Even though when properly cleared many of these categories can play a vital role in the outcome of a fire. We don't need anyone who can't be interior so we'll also have to start limiting age due to the number of 40 plus year old interior guy's dying from heart attacks. So with the age cut off those guy's on the job well oh well you can't be a driver because you don't belong interior so thanks for being here 20yrs have a nice day don't have to go home but can't stay here.

Yes the requirements for some one becoming and staying interior needed updating. Just remember there are probably more exterior/support personnel are and were regular firefighters before they had to hang up there scba the way some make it sound they are not firefighters. It was added about hospitals you're right not everyone is called a Dr but they are all health care workers. Just like not everyone in the fire service is an interior or wildland or whatever but we are all firefighters! So get off you're high horse find real solutions for all of the fire service and the community's better requirements for every position in the fire service don't just write off the exterior like I said before a lot of them can't be interior anymore.

That blue is a far cry from the dark blue that was stated to be discontinued. So they very well could be discontinued and now trying to find a new color to take it's place. There's probably more variations of blue paint that can be mixed then I want to think about. So maybe it was a stretch to say they have to go black but it's not a stretch to say the color mix might be obsolete

J.H. Ketcham Hose Co. Dutchess county is about to go for final inspection on the first of two new rigs. First is a new E-One emax stainless steel body 1500 pump 1000 tank 30 foam. The second will be a commercial cab E-ONE engine/tanker 1500 pump 1800 tank. When the EMAX comes through on final delivery I will post some pictures as well as some more specs. Sneak peak at the eight man cab before the body gets mounted at E-one's Hamburg new york plant. Picture was sent form the ny plant when the chassis was delivered from Florida.

I can see good uses for a booster reel on a rig but as many have posted the good points are matched and surpassed by a trash line or even the first fifty feet of an attack line. The boosters pit falls out way the small amount of negative of using a regular inch and three quarter for one sole reason the human factor you cannot guarantee everyone will not take the easy way out at the wrong time.

The small propane tank, I should have been more clear. Granted you should not use it on a continue operation, a larger line should be put into place for continual operations like you described. For an intial attack to get some sort of dispiation going, it can be done but a larger line should be set in place definately. Its a stop gap measure for a short time.

Sorry for using your post but this is the main reason why boosters are a bad idea they can create bad habits. I am not going into all the details unless someone needs them think of this propane expands 270 times from a liquid to a gas so it really dose not take much to create a large problem even a twenty pound cylinder can kill a lot of people in short order most twenty pound tanks have around 4 gallons of liquid do the math it becomes a large issue in a hurry. It wasn't to long ago just over the state line from my area where a building was destroyed by a leaking forklift tank and most of them are only ten more pounds (1-2gal liquid) then a regular BBQ grill. http://www.newmilfordspectrum.com/news/article/Propane-explosion-razes-Gaylordsville-439432.php

Everyone just needs to think and be safe no matter what the department has or there polices are. We are all here for the same dam thing get home safe.

Fun Fact of the day;

Back in 93, during my very short tenure at the Westchester Modular Homes plant, we had a project come through called the "Teasdale Project", which were modular homes for the City of Yonkers. They were a pain because every wall had to be double 5/8 sheetrock. We hated them, but that was the whatthey spec'ed for code.

Years later, I was doing EMS calls in those same buildings...not a straight wall to be found thanks in part to me.

So, technically, we CAN fight the same fires as there are MANY WMH dwellings in Dover.

What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing really.

Only you Dan ha ha

ATV I think you are contradicting yourself. How can you say you come on this site to seek other people's experience and knowledge yet claim to get mad because you feel some are writing it off. ( the incident in quesiton). I have read some comments from some highly experienced officers on this issue and I think it is safe to say they know what they are talking about. Unless I missed it I have yet to see what you would do if this was your job. What would you do?

Honestly I can't answer that

1. I don't know the building

2. What are my resources

3. I don't know the building

4. Well you should get the picture to many Unknown variables.

If it was a similar building in my town and everything that was needed was either there or on the way. I would make aggressive interior attack and search. But once again I can't say that for that building that day I don't know and in reality no one else dose because the is no offer of these needed facts.

I am not knocking the tried and true method how is that so hard to understand I am just trying to play devils advocate. Not everything everyone it every fire can be the same and we need to learn from that not just dismiss it, pick a different day who knows they even might have done it different. That's the whole reason I am on this site to see other people's experience and knowledge I just get made when everyone would just plain write something off.

I'd bet you would be wrong jflynn I try to take a balance of all that's around me experienced guys the science of fire you name it I try and throw it in the pot. I am not gonna stand on a pedestal and say my way of fighting fire should be gospel. I don't fight the same fire you do or they do. But I have to say it's clear one thing I have the respect to realize everyone is different and would rather know the Merritt is there tactics or the reason it doesn't work here there or whatever. Instead of you guys taking a minute to look at there tactics might work for them you would rather get everyone killed because your to arrogant to see your way is not the only way.

Yeah guys I don't think we should discuss the merits and pitfalls of different strategies and tactics on a firefighting site. Its much more conducive to firefighter safety and the perfection of our trade to discuss the legality of [insert random color] lights or whose new engine has the shiniest Q on the front bumper.

I doubt your department is from this town in Europe, why get so bent out of shape? There's nothing wrong with learning from other people's mistakes, particularly when you're not in danger of personally insulting anyone here on the site. Obviously a video isn't the ENTIRE operational picture of whats going on, but you can't doubt this video exemplifies some stark differences between standard firefighting here in the US as opposed to Europe. Personally I find the cultural difference when it comes to the different fire services very interesting, and definitely worth discussing.

QTIP*

*QTIP is a (possibly) registered trademark of Chief Flynn, YFD.

Again why is it a mistake what they did? Granted I would have done it different.

I am just trying to say we're so quick to say its wrong but what if it's right for them yes we should discuss all aspects but again we are so quick to judge negatively were different like I said my department would probably fight that fire totally different but on this site of supposed to be learning all I see is that department did it wrong not why it might work for them and why this department would do different.

Here it is I am aggressive the guys I that are with me are aggressive heck even our drivers are aggressive and as a department we train and fight aggressive. Only I am progressive enough to say maybe the department has a reason for not getting aggressive right out the gate as I said before there are a lot of scenarios that change your tactics. Just because the only thing we know is aggressive attack doesn't mean that's the only way.I believe there is something about skinning a cat.

This is why I can't take this site some times God forbid someone used different tactics. There are a million different things to consider and from a video you can't see, hear or already know what's there before it catches fire. Why cut them down you don't know you can't know what's going on from a six minute video. You may see all these fire fighters but I didn't see all the packs everyone here Idk the first to say we need 4 trucks and 7 engines before we fight a trash can fire and don't forget the fast team and a rit backup. For this small snapshot in time the attack they used seemed to work. But what do I know progression is never a good thing.

Hmmm it looks to me like a blitz attack until more resources get on scene. So where is that a bad thing that's what departments in the US have to and have done for ever to slow down progression until you get enough on scene to effectively fight the fire. We only see five minutes in this incident think how long it takes some areas to get equipment on scene in the states not everywhere has a full compliment of trucks engines and manpower five minutes away. From my perspective they did a great job knocking down visible fire and if your paying attention it looks like they also knocked it down enough where it's really not producing smoke now go in and mop up with proper manpower and equipment.

There is nothing wrong with having helpers. But there are a few problems that come up:

1) Do not call them firefighters if they are helpers. When a department tells the community it has a 100 firefighters (or members) it never tells them that only 10 or 20 or whatever the number is are actually going to enter a burning structure to save their kids, parents, wife, etc. The community thinks it has great protection, when maybe it needs to reconsider its system.

2) I have seen incidents with 100's of "helpers" (most were just buffing) and they stood around watching someones home burn to the ground, while 4 FIREFIGHTERS tried to stop it. If you have more helpers onscene than firefighters, then they are not helping.

3) I find accountability at most fires is very very poor at best. Throw a lot of extra helpers in and it gets worst.

No they do not have to be, but they are often much better pump operators if they have spent so time on the nob and gotten bounced around or not given enough water by the MPO.

Yes you can but what % of the dept is a firefighter and what % is a helper. While its nice to have the extra hands outside, 99% of fire depts do not have enough firefighters to do the hard part.

Which in my mind means other communities get a better response from your department, than your own community.

I get that but due to geography sometimes it means a quicker response since firefighter and exterior are closer to the scene and drivers live practically in the fire house. Like I have said might not work for everyone but it works for us especially in a town that would prolly would not be able to support a paid fire department at least not yet although I know is coming it has to with growth so we are preparing and looking to the future. It's not about the department is about your community

All this fire related stuff aside...Congrats bro and best wishes to you, baby and mom.

Thank you

:)

Who knows maybe fifth generation FF/ officer lol

Another example - how many career firefighters can go an entire career (20 years) without ever getting trained to operate or drive an engine? Thats unheard of - all employees must be trained to the same standard and that includes being a driver of need be.

I am in my 23rd year....and I have never been qualified on an engine...never had the desire too, never been forced too.

And dont get me wrong Cap - I am really agreeing with you - just trying to show the other side and why these guys are so firm in their statements.

And I say BOY.

That's a whole different issue because some people don't belong driving period. And some people such as yourself that want to be interior can because the driving is done by someone usually a firefighter that no longer should or can be interior.

And it's a girl.

Ryan - you are copmparing a CAREER job with a vollie (our) department...so yes - every firefighter (read; EMPLOYEE) needs to be the same. If a rig pulls up at any emergency, they are staffed with firefighters and an Officer...period.

I remember going to a chimney fire on the Truck a few years ago....your Dad was driving...then it was me (full gear, ready to go)....and Thumper...and that old guy who always hangs out at the firehouse who I can never recall his name. (Not Car 3's Dad).

In any event - there you have a "4 man truck" responding to a fire.....how many were actually capable of firefighting? Bear in mind I was the ONLY one on board wearing turnout gear. See the difference?

I agree - non-interior members are useful on OUR scenes, but for departments of a more urban climate, such as those the posters above are members of or have retired from - it doesnt cut the mustard..Career departments are held to higher standards. They HAVE to be...hell - I failed the physical agility to get on the job by 5/10 of a second; a half a flocking second! Done...off the list.

In the vollies, we call that "close enough".

I actually do agree on the trucks going mutual aide should not even leave the floor without a full interior crew. Your talking around our town and the main majority of our members go to the scene for geographic reasons so in that case the truck sitting in the bay 3 dispatches while the manpower is OS is not good like I said will not work for all but I still do not understand why certain task can't be done by exterior I.e. driving. Minus paid staff I understand that's how your unions work hey whatever it's what works for you. But even in that case I can see the driver not needing to be a firefighter in so many words but i don't blame anyone for not doing that with today's world and civil service.

I was not trying to bash and my comments might be slightly dated, but I was basing them on: http://www.emtbravo....011-discussion/

I've seen hundreds of depts that have or want to have a ladder company, but they still have work to do on the basics engine company operations.

There are hundreds of unmanned / undermanned apparatus in Westchester (in volunteer, combo and career depts) and a massive lack of basic capabilities. And at the same time we spend a lot of money for service, that in some places is very good and other places very poor.

I am sorry if that offends some people.

Wow what a great comment you can insert county, department what ever you want. In my opinion that's the main reason for the under funding and under staffing duplication of service departments need to down size and combine services not expand the services they already can't support.

So everyone who thinks there should be no helpers why? Why can't we have people to help with task that have training weather its a minimum for being on a fire ground or simple someone for what ever reason can't be an interior at the time or for the rest of his life he or she is supposed to disappear and not share any of their knowledge or do what they still can.

OK let me break it down if you have 5 rigs respond you need 5 drivers right so far? So stop me if I am wrong the way a lot of you will have it that those five rigs will be driven by firefighters( interior only no exceptions). so you complain about not having enough to do a job there is five guys right there that can be used if you had just drivers. Dose a driver have to be or ever had to been an interior firefighter? If yes why???

Do you have to crawl down a smokey hallway to learn how to change out bottles, throw a ladder, get tools, hump hose, help the pump operator(MPO, chauffeur, driver, what ever you need to call them)??? If yes why I believe every firefighter needs to know these things but why cant we also have people that do not want to be interior help with the proper training of their own.

I will never knock the career guys that what they have to do and for the most part they do a great job with a lot of flack and insecurity with there jobs. that's what works for them in my department we can do a lot with a handful of interior guys on an indecent and some really great exterior people for support and get things done well, safe, and quick. That's what works for us but that might not work for everyone just like stuff the career departments do might not work for us. Everyone has staffing issues its no secret for those who think the career guys are calling around you maybe they are but step back look from there eyes they need someone there ever time not half way some times and all the way other times so instead of complaining give the departments a reason to call you show them you have competent trained staff that will respond 110% 24/7 not 90%nights and weekends and ??? weekdays. Even as a volunteer I would look at who can I get how long and how good but in the sticks due to that thing called geography we can't be as picky all the time.

I don't know about other departments, but we pick up our own hose. I don't remember any time we didn't.

I am just trying to make a point that most people are writing the exterior guys off like they have no place on the fire ground. If I need man power I try to use everyone to their fullest just saying.

Again I ask why waste the manpower of the exterior guys that can do jobs that you will have to put interior guys to do when you need the interior guys to do what their trained to do. Yes if you call an engine for M/A you should get SCBA guys I am not arguing that but would you automatically throw out some great resource on the fire ground of exterior guys that can preform task to free up SCBA guys to do their job?

I'd imagine it probably depends on the type of m/a call. Exteriors could be used for brush fire m/a calls (in my department, exteriors are used for brush fires), support work on scene depending on the requirements needed by the department calling for m/a. If your doing tanker operations, why send an interior out of your district to assist the mpo if he's going to be tied to the tanker?

No two mutual aid calls are the same; I think it depends on what the needs are at the time the mutual aid call is given as determined by the incident commander.

Agreed 100% why use interior for task that can be accomplished by a exterior member.

Final Note how nice is it when those exterior guys help you pack up after kicking the crap out of your interior guys in the fire where they should be!

I was typing the same response, you beat me to it. The other issue I was adding, which goes along with training is, the volunteer rig shows up with six people, of which, 2 are junior members, 2 are exterior only, and 2 are SCBA trained with several courses, that equals a t man rig in my opinion.

And yet if you know how to you can use all of those guys. Not saying it's right for a rig to show up without scba guys buy also don't knock the help for things like ladders some vent work, and hose humping along with other things think about it this way let the guys on air do what they need to do and have the guys who are not do what needs to be done outside. It's better use of manpower.

On September Fifteenth in a class put on with paraco gas and the Dutchess County Department of emergence response we conducted live fire and leak evolution's to train on what we have learned in two nights of classroom training. A Few Duchess county departments were represented at the class including J.H. Ketcham (Dover), Beekmen, Hydepark, Roosevelt, Stanford, New Hamburg, Pleasant Valley, I apologize for any department I forgot. I will come back with some better descriptions and explanations throughout the week when i have more time but I wanted to get some of the photos up for others to see. I Don't know if every one can tell but if you look at where the liquid propane was blowing out the relief valve it was creating a ice tub moving the leak and flame upward away from the tank look at the straight whit stream of fog coming from the tank you can see the ice forming. Another shot of the ice buildup. A fresh out of Fire Fighter one kid getting a chance to give a shot. A fairly new but up and coming Fire Fighter EMT getting right up on the tank. Who said ice dosn't burn. Here is a chunk of frozen liquid propane on fire that got blown off the tank. I will eventually try and post some more pictures and video as soon as I can.

I can't say I would agree with a gun how about a taser though it could come in handy from time to time.