RES24CUE

How can you be an "ex-felon"?  Once you are convicted of a felony aren't you a felon for life?  This entire premise is bizarre...were their convictions overturned or is the article just idiocy.

Once a degenerate, always a degenerate in my opinion.

DEC not DEP:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2364.html

Your points are valid. But I still think we are firefighters...when the alarm comes in or we go mutual aid we take a fire truck.

I don't know where things got so twisted that this is now looked at as a bad idea. Again we will agree to disagree. Be safe everyone.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but I wanted to give my take on why we don't take a fire truck to every alarm (no disrespect spin-the-wheel as I think your posts are very knowledgeable and well thought out). This is my opinion on the matter....

When I was a fire officer I used to cringe when the department's large pieces would leave the firehouse. The tones would drop and a chauffeur (he could be 21 years old...could be 77 years old) who would drive a truck once a week (at best...some guys would only drive once a month, or even once every three months) a mile down the road to a bullshit call would hop out of his Honda Civic after being jolted from a sound sleep during a rain storm and get behind the wheel of a 30,000lb engine with 5 other souls on board.

Now, add a mutual aid situation to the mix. This guy is driving the rig under the same situation as previously stipulated (rain, being jolted from a sound sleep in the middle of the night, and only driving once a week at most...maybe even once a month if he is an occasional chauffeur) and add the stress of responding to a working fire, on unfamiliar roadways outside of district, and in close proximity to dozens of other large pieces of equipment who also have amateur chauffeurs. The potential for disaster or damage is huge here.

When I was Captain, our rescue was parked at a parade and the bucket of a neighboring town's ladder that was backing-in next to the rig went right through the front windows of the cab. It took the rig out of service of 3 months to get fixed. Over that time my life was extremely overcomplicated because our rescue was absent, our engine was overloaded with rescue/extrication equipment wherever it would fit, operations and training were extremely overcomplicated, and the quality of service that could be provided to the taxpayers was negatively impacted. I learned a valuable lesson here...if you can handle an EMS call with a utility, then there is no reason to take an engine.

The solution to the problem is training...but as well all know manpower is sparse and if you make it too hard to get qualified then the guys would get discouraged and just give up trying. So you just have to say, "this guy has put in as much effort as I think he is willing to put into this and he knows enough to not get anyone killed on the way to your everyday alarm. He can draft and put an attack line into operation so we will have to just give him our blessing." The department with which I was previously affiliated didn't even require drivers to take EVOC or Pump Ops to Chauffeur an engine because the members simply would choose not to drive and the trucks wouldn't get out.

Do I agree with this? HELL NO...

The problem is inherent to the volunteer fire service and cannot be adequately corrected as the involved factors are correlated...you can't have all three: knowledgeable, quality chauffeurs; happy, motivated and accomplished-feeling manpower (drivers); and apparatus that make it out the door for every alarm.

BUT coming home in a marked fire vehicle from an emergency where the 6 guys all get off with gear and some tools and cant do anything because they left the engine or ladder back home is another thing. Just looks bad. We will agree to disagree.

First off, its a car fire...you're not saving it. Make it look good, and hit it with a couple of cans until the engine gets there.

Second, how is this any different then if they were in a utility, a ladder, a rescue, or those billboards called Chief's Cars. There is always going to be a situation where you may come upon an incident in a marked vehicle where the unit in which you are riding is not equipped to handle. Its just part of the job. What if your engine comes across a pin job and has to wait for the rescue? Or your engine comes upon a man hanging from a scaffold and has to wait for a ladder? Having guys always returning from fires in an engine isn't exactly an end-all-be-all to every situation that you may come across.

Key here is "outfitted with their FAST equipment and air packs" A rig designed for transport of manpower and tools is fine. But some here are making it sound like you can just grab your department school bus and "throw" everything in.

I think Ossining has a special unit designed for their FAST/RIT responses as well. That's fine.

In my opinion, if a department had an application where this would be very practical, then you would just have to do it right. If you removed all the seats in the bus and lined the sides with Jump Seats and mounted tools in the rear so they would not dislodge in a wreck, then why the hell not.

When you convert a soda delivery truck into a Haz-Mat rig, you modify it to best suit its new application; When you turn a bread truck into a dive truck, you turn the inside into a dive unit...I would assume that the same logic would apply when converting a passenger bus into a unit dedicated to carrying personnel to a structure fire. If this were a good idea for a department, I doubt anyone is advocating that it be done haphazardly. That's just my thought...

From the Lewisboro Ledger:

http://www.lewisboroledger.com/17632/joe-manstrelli-of-goldens-bridge-loses-battle-with-lung-disease/

I don't have any stake in this argument at all whatsoever and have no opinion one way or the other. However, it does sound similar to something that already exists in our area. When you call Mount Kisco F.A.S.T. they have an ambulance/bus type vehicle that is outfitted with their F.A.S.T. equipment and air packs. To take the "bus" comparison a step further, I believe the rig leaves from IFCO with however many F.A.S.T. qualified members that they have, then stops by Hooks to pick up their F.A.S.T. qualified members, then stops by Mutuals to pick up their F.A.S.T. qualified members, then proceeds to the scene. Sounds like a bus to me...

I have tried to post the picture 2 different ways but I cannot get it to post to the forum. I apologize.

It is with great sadness that I share with the members of this online community that Joseph Manstrelli (pictured above, right in black) of the Golden's Bridge Fire Department has passed away. Joe was a 57 year member of the Golden's Bridge Fire Department (and a legend) and has been Captain of Fire Police for the department since 1983. He was also very active on the Kitchen Committee and arranged the annual Children's Holiday Party. Additionally, he was a very active member of the Putnam County Fire Police Association. I would like to note that I am no longer a member of the Golden's Bridge Fire Department and am in no way speaking on their behalf (I mean no disrespect). To my knowledge funeral arrangements have yet to be determined. I just know that Joe has made countless friends in his impressive career in the fire service who will be very saddened by his passing and thought it necessary to share with the local community. Joe served as my Fire Police Captain when I was Captain of the Department for GBFD and words cannot express his passion and commitment to the emergency services. I will surely post the details of the arrangements as soon as I am informed assuming a current member does not post them sooner.

God Bless You Joe! You Will Be Missed!

You know the consolidation of volunteer departments without the addition of any paid personnel could be a significant improvement over the completely arcane system we have now. Everyone immediately assumes that consolidation implies paid but it doesn't! How about merging 4-5 districts that serve the same town? Or the countless villages that rely heavily on each other and are smaller than a postage stamp.

Imagine a River Towns or Sound Shore or North County Fire District with several former departments under one hierarchy. Economies of scale in purchasing, reduction of apparatus numbers (and the ability to have "spares", something virtually non-existent outside the big cities), higher personnel counts, standard training, administration and operations, to name a few.

A member department with strengths in one area can help one weak in that area and so on. Officers can be vetted from a larger pool of candidates improving the quality, competition, and ultimately performance. Chiefs will oversee a bigger department giving them more experience. Budgets can be consolidated perhaps reducing the overall cost to the taxpayer.

There's a lot to be said for consolidating and it doesn't mean adding ONE paid guy.

It seems like everyone is ignoring the side-by-side example of a consolidated volunteer department that sits right next door to the town in which this fire occurred. The town of Somers and the Town of Lewisboro have very similar constructs but have gone in opposite directions in terms of a consolidated department vs individual departments. Somers is about the same size as the Town of Lewisboro. They have 4 fire houses spread across town but operate as one department, with one chain of command, one set of SOPs, one fire district and consolidated resources. Conversely, in the Town of Lewisboro, they have the Golden's Bridge Fire Department, the South Salem Fire Department, and the Vista Fire Department (and the Lewisboro Ambulance Corps). Each of these departments are completely independent of one another and have their own chain of command, separate Fire District, separate equipment and their own set of SOGs.

In my opinion the consolidated volunteer department makes more sense for the following reasons:

• The town of Lewisboro has 3 Mid-Heavy Rescue Units (Counting Rescue 24 may it rest in peace)...All of NYC has 5!
• The town of Lewisboro has 7+ Chief Vehicles.
• Each department in Lewisboro has at least 2 "Class A" engines so that they can stay in service when one goes out for maintenance. 90% of the time each engine rolls without a full crew anyway (thats if they can even get two engines out the door)
• Shortage of Officers. When I joined the fire service 10 years ago Vista Fire Department had 3 chiefs and a multiple captains, Lieutenants and Foremen, etc...now they are down to 3 officers (a chief, a captain, and a lieutenant). I believe that GBFD currently operates with two of their Lt. positions vacant. Moreover, many departments' by-laws are constantly being set aside to allow people who don't meet the professional qualifications to hold office. In many instances, members are being promoted to officer positions after being a member for only a year and having never been first-due to a car fire let alone a structure fire.

What it all comes down to here is that you are ultimately going to get the same resources to a fire in both towns. In Somers you will probably get 20-30 members town-wide who will all respond to a daytime incident. In Lewisboro, you will get 10 members from the "host" department and 5-6 from each of the other 2 departments in town via mutual aid.

The differences however are major!

• There will be a delay in resources because you have to wait for the host department to get on scene to dispatch mutual aid...they will have to operate with 4-6 people for at least the first 10-15 minutes until mutual aid can respond to their firehouses and then to the scene.
• There will be way too many Chiefs on scene because there will be 3 from each of the other departments in town...and not enough indians because anyone who is even remotely good will be a chief already (side note...I think Croton Falls had command on this last Goldens Bridge fire and at their firehouse fire last year).
• The manpower from the three independent departments will be less familiar with the equipment and personnel from the other departments than that of the one consolidated department.
• 3 sets of SOGs vs one consolidated set.

I thought the side-by-side comparison may help clear up the confusion that a consolidated department would have to be paid. The Town of Somers could probably have ended up as the Granite Springs, Amawalk, Lincoldale, and Town of Somers fire departments had they wanted to go that route...for all I know they may have been at some point way back when.

Yet, here you are. Continually signing on the site and posting, and posting, and posting. You have the freedom to avoid coming on here, given your litany of complaints.

Alright Mod! Delete my screen name! Wipe me out! I've asked before to have my name deleted to no avail! This is the first I've posted here in months and I find it to be as boring as ever before. No loss to me... this bullshit means nothing to me...your move!

I think we have to consider the fact that this site may have run its course as many end up doing. In addition, as a few have mentioned, many of the topics posted do not require much of a discussion if any.

I agree! It's time to end it! emtbravo has run its course...take down the site down while we still have a few positive memories left in our minds and before it gets completely pathetic (as it is pretty close)...this site is antiquated and beyond saving. Emtbravo should count its losses and move on in my opinion.

Your entire post was Spot on, with one exception, the sentence above.

Paid chauffeurs also hide the problem. Wow look how fast the FD got on scene but still no one to take care of the problem. And as you said full time staffing is not financially viable based on the call volume. And many of these VFD's are doing no better at night.

When their are 2, 3 , 4 departments in town.....consolidate. then not everyone is trying to staff 2 engines and a truck and rescue. Then if needed add a paid company to handle all the BS that is a problem. Then and only then if you need to go fully paid, you can do it with fewer rigs covering a larger area and it becomes cost effective.

I just want to clarify (I'm not arguing with you as I agree 100% with what you said, just realized that I didn't explain where I was coming from with the paid-chauffeur comment)...I was not promoting the addition of a paid chauffeur. I think that this is a natural in-between step (wrong or right) in the transition process. I was a member of a fire company in SE Connecticut when I was in college that had paid chauffeurs on during the day (M-F 7a-5p). What has happened since? It evolved into a paid Chauffeur and an officer. Then became a paid chauffeur, an officer, and a firefighter. AND they added a late shift (2 Shifts, 7-3 & 3-11) Now they are on the verge of being a paid department. I think the chauffeur is the first step in the evolutionary process. The departments hire a "custodian" or a "building manager" to help out during the day but just so happens to be a FF/EMT and have a CDL (I know you don't need one in NY, just making the point that he's a truck driver). This business is slow to change and must improvement will come slowly. These places aren't going to change from volunteer to paid overnight like the flip of a light switch...especially not with the inertia that will be created by the past volunteers who "have been serving selflessly for over 100 years." Unfortunately, their selfless devotion just doesn't cut it anymore.

I think the biggest pit fall of this forum has been that many people on here promote "a pat on the back" for anything and everything. A "like button" which is pressed for posting an incident or any other thread. People are constantly looking for kudos every time they make a post and that clearly isn't going to happen. It is innate for human beings to disagree for the most part and most people have a difficult time coping with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with their opinions and may not get positive reinforcement. A wise man said a long time ago that "it has become appalling obvious that technology has exceeded humanity" and since that time it appears to have become harder and harder to engage another human in a conversation or any type of debate. For the most part all of us on here are buffs and trying to hone our skills and knowledge. So why be upset when someone tells you got screwed up or tells you their opinion of what they would've done??? Why not debate the circumstances and listen to their opinion. Maybe they've been in the same situation and seen the same outcome and maybe, just maybe you could pick up something you didn't even think about. Most arguments are misunderstandings anyway. A perfect example is the argument ongoing as I type this response. Rescue24 has made a post and although I may agree and disagree to certain parts, that clearly does not mean he isn't entitled to his opinion. I've noticed that most of the people who are actually willing to debate are kicked off the site because somebody cried about one of their responses. Now you're left with nobody to debate with and a pat on the back for everyone else's bullshit. Everyone who wanted to debate and learn something or just argue their opinions have left. Now it's just robots hitting a like button.

I don't have facebook or twitter, or anything of that nature because I feel it would be the bane of my existence but from looking at a few fire wires and such, I really don't see people debating topics on there either so I really see no reason for this site to be dead. Let's all communicate with each other and we'll actually accomplish something we didn't even think was possible.

Let's all get together and design a Turing machine which will solve this Enigma!!! LOL

Liked your post even though you don't like that...sorry

This guy posted something on this forum that was so offensive to me that I actually reported it. I found it to be over the line, and can't believe he's characterizing it like it was such an innocent thing . http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/50876-are-citizens-with-cell-phone-videos-interfering-with-law-enforcement-doing-their-jobs/?p=291993

This guy stands by what he said. My post had no profanity, racism, crudeness, or anything that should be censored. Once again, I know that my posts my be extremely unpopular (esp. for an emergency services website). That said, it is important to express opinions in open, and uncensored forums (both positive and negative) so that law enforcement is aware how everyone views them and not just their supporters (I'm sure there are other people out there with varying, milder degrees of my extreme opinion). When we start to censor these ideas we threaten the free thinking ideas on which our country was founded and enter the realm of Cuba or Soviet Union. If I were dropping f-bombs, n-bombs, selling illegal stun guns, and promoting incest it would be one thing...but I think we are all adults here and can handle a negative post with strong wording about how I feel police are undereducated for the role. So keep reporting those posts Stalin...and make sure you vote for Hillary in 2016 while you are at it!

You hit the nail on the head chkpoint!

The problem that presents itself is a paradox. Not enough fires per square mile to justify full-time, paid fire departments (and the costs of benefits, retirement, etc.)...but not so few fires that we can just count our losses and ignore the problem entirely. Your typical volunteer crew of 5 guys (or gals), 2 or 3 who have a bit of experience and a level head on their shoulders can typically handle your run-of-the-mill calls for food on the stove, a residential lock-out, or a car into the ditch. But when there is a fire every 2-3 years and that crew of 3 or 5 guys simply will not suffice. They do the best that they can and either one guy makes a good call and puts the line in the right place to make a stop...or, they chase the fire from window to window around the house until it eventually goes out (we have all seen it). Either way, the fires happen so infrequently that the public doesn't even realize that there is a problem. There were 5 fires in my town (with 3 independent departments) in 2013-2014 and all 5 of the buildings (one of which was one of the firehouse) were heavily damaged if not completely destroyed by fire.

I think there is a serious problem with the volunteer fire service (at least in my area). The chiefs, officers, and members of the fire departments are hiding their manpower shortages in an effort to protect their department's longstanding tradition. They are afraid that, if the public knows how bad things really are, then they will be uprooted from their firehouses and replaced with paid firemen. The chief will lose his spot as chief (along with his power and his car), the men will lose their "clubhouse," and the longstanding tradition of the department that they enjoy so much will be a thing of the past. They will have, in their eyes, failed as a department...

I read a lot of articles about manpower shortages or interviews with chiefs where they consistently say things like "we can always use more volunteers and manpower is low at present but we continue to respond to every alarm." To me, this means that the chief goes to every alarm and one or two guys to the firehouse during the day to get a utility or mini-attack out the door. I know of many fire departments around that "respond to every alarm" where the chiefs all sign on, then go to the firehouse, get a rig, sign that rig on as well, and they have 5 units on the road but only have 3 people (Shhhh...it's a secret!). Again, the chief is cloaking the manpower problem by saying that they never miss a response. And, to the county it looks like they have stellar responses when in fact they don't.

Another way that departments hide their manpower shortages is by saying that they have "50 members on the roster" when, in reality, only 3-5 are very active. If you look at the websites of some of these departments under the "members" section they have tremendous lists of firefighters; but half of these people haven't been seen in more than 5 years. On the department's website for my town (of which I was previously a member) there are a few people listed as members who are dead (NOT EVEN KIDDING!). So when the town supervisor or a concerned citizen looks at the website and see all those names they think everything is great, when, in reality, it is just a facade.

Lastly, I always hear chiefs in the paper saying "we averaged 15 people per alarm last year (month, week, etc.)". How many of those people are qualified interior firefighters? I know that when I was a member, the Chief would tell the fire district every month that the department "averaged 12 members per call the previous month." 4 of the 12 were fire police in their '80s who came to every call; 3-4 of the 12 were junior members; and the rest were the chiefs and a few stragglers per call. Again, this "average" number is an illusion to hide the fact that departments these days just don't cut it.

I think fire chiefs and fire departments are coming up with inventive ways to hide manpower shortages because the solution to the problem is not desirable to them. They are stalling because they think things will get better on their own (I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "manpower comes in waves") where, in reality, you might get a good year or two with the addition of a few good members but the fact of the matter is that manpower has been on a steady decline for years. The real solution to the problem is going to eventually be the addition of a few paid chauffeurs to get the trucks out during the day, then eventually going to full-time staffing during the day. Then the volunteers can take over at night when there are more guys around who come home from work. But, the longer the volunteer leadership can hold off the better because they get to hold on to their little men's club and the pride of 100 years of service by their organization. They don't want the intrusion of paid firefighters in their space, they don't want paid vs. volunteer battles, they don't want union issues, and they don't want to be thrown out. Firefighting is fun and those of us who love it really enjoy doing what we do. If they bring in career firefighters, the volunteers won't get to do what they love to do anymore, be firemen. So they have to hide it to hold on to their job. Hopefully, no one will have to lose their life to evince change like we see everywhere else on this job!

I used to check this site more when the incident threads were up to date. There was a time when it seemed like at three in the afternoon or three in the morning emtbravo had good, detailed posts about every fire or pin job (anything significant where mutual aid was called). I work in an office where I can't monitor the pager all day so it was really great to know what was going on in the county. No one ever posts these anymore so I don't bother checking this as my resource. Now I check lohud or my local paper instead.

For me, the threads always turned into one of the following...

1. Career vs. Volunteer arguments

2. Everyone patting each other on the back for no reason

Boooorrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnggggggg!

Plus, I kept getting put on moderator watch where my posts had to be approved before they went into the threads for having unpopular opinions. For a past volunteer who is now getting back into it again I have very anti-emergency services views because I think that the volunteer fire system here in Westchester is seriously broken and am in favor of consolidation. That said, just because my opinions are negative and unpopular does not mean that they are wrong. When I sent a note to Seth asking why I was being censored he did not even bother to respond. So i seldom waste my time anymore.

Are you talking about equipment inventory on the apparatus or property inventory of the contents of the firehouse?

It's a two way street (not the one in the video), fire trucks don't park in front of a house being burlarized, and police shouldn't be parked in front of a fire. Sometimes you have to do a little damage to get the job done. I recall a fire upstate where a fire broke out in a house literally 3 doors down from the firedepartment/police department building. A rookie police officer left his cruiser in front of one of the fire bays (and ran towards the fire!), and the driver of that first due engine just pushed the cruiser SIDEWAYS across the street. Was it the right thing to do? It probably wasn't the best judgement call, but given the situation I would do the same thing. After all, there's a reason the insurance companies exist.

However, since the officer in the video happened to be right there he could have just moved the car.

I am generally unopposed to Monday Morning Quarterbacking. However, on this one I am hesitant. I do not know the whole story here, the assignment for that piece of apparatus, what the engine driver was trying to accomplish, or most importantly, where that rig went after the video ended. I hate the bullish mentality that many firefighters develop these days..."we are the fire department and we can do whatever we want." It is my belief that there a lot of overzealous idiots in this business who think its "cool" to force a door for an automatic alarm, break every window in the house for an incipient burn in a rubbish can, or push someone's car out of the way because they want their engine 10 feet closer to the fire. That said, I have 2 opinions on the mater:

The first opinion is that the engine doesn't belong in front of that fire to begin with! The only thing that would be achieved in this instance would be that the engine would block needed access for a ladder truck that should occupy the flanking position on the corner of that building. After all, we can always add more lengths of hose, but we can't add another fly to the ladder. That engine should be parked out of the way somewhere down the street and the amount of hose needed should be pulled to the fire building.

The second opinion that I have here is that I do not know the specific assignment of that engine and therefore cannot say that pushing those cop cars out of the way wasn't justified. If there were guys screaming for water and that engine was assigned to hit the plug, then maybe it was urgent that they squeeze by to get water to the attack engine. If there were people hanging out of windows and the ladder truck was behind them, maybe they needed to get out of its way. I don't know??? But I don't think that waiting 30 seconds for the cop to move his car would have made much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

My strongest opinion on the matter is that there are plenty of young and impressionable firefighters who read this blog who should take the actions demonstrated in this video with a grain of salt. There are many potential negative outcomes of performing a risky maneuver like the one in this video:

1. The two cars being pushed could have turned sideways and completely blocked the engine's access to the fire.

2. The car being pushed could have struck the engine's tire, flattening it, and leaving the engine unable to reach its destination.

3. The cars could have jumped the curb and taken out an unseen hydrant compromising the water source needed for the fire.

4. The actions of the driver could cause "bad blood" between the fire department and police department resulting in endless headaches during future operations.

As the previous post stated, "sometimes we have to do a little damage to get the job done." BUT DON'T GO LOOKING FOR IT! This should be viewed as an unfortunate event that should be avoided at all costs and not a great opportunity. There are far too many people (morons) in this industry who will think that this video "awesome." So I don't think that we should be cheerleaders here to feed those with an overly aggressive mentality.

The Chief (or his assistant if he chooses to delegate)

The captain of the Company to which the rig belongs

The Engineer responsible for the maintenance of the rig

The Commissioner who is tasked as the "Fleet Manager" for the fire district

And if one additional person is needed to lighten the work load on the other 4...a recent ex-chief or master chauffeur preferable who has completed the respective nys courses to operate the rig being replaced (evoc, pump op, or ladder op)

Neat tool? do you put it on over or under your SCBA?

So this backpack weights about 45 lbs. So you use them on your initial knockdown but you have to leave your SCBA on the truck. Sounds like another toy that some depts. will buy with tax payer funds and it will sit on the rig till it no longer functions and its then thrown away.

Maybe you wear your SCBA on the front now! Like a reverse backpack...

Once upon a time there was a level of decorum that existed between the public and LEOs. Officers knew the people in their town, their demeanor, and their tendencies, and could diffuse virtually any situation with a conversation and some sound reason. It is a shame that "Protect and Serve" has been replaced by "Command and Tase." I guess we need extremes like the protests that occurred in Furguson, MO to combat the other extreme, the one being vocalized on this very thread. It seems that the Emtbravo "Fan Club" has taken the position of "whatever these cops do to this guy he had it coming." I know I would be pretty pissed if some degenerate with a High School diploma and a badge on his chest were screaming in my face like the trooper was doing to the "perp" in this video. Regardless of this guy's criminal history and whatever act brought the police there that day, these Super Troopers seemed a little too jacked-up on Mountain Dew and quick to that taser trigger for me to condone any of their actions. I know I didn't see what happened before the video started and can't prove that this guy didn't have it coming...but none of you did either and you can't prove that he did...From what I have seen here, the treatment this guy got didn't match the resistance.

Really? The hat was making it difficult to subdue the guy? Were his socks making it difficult as well? The people on this site are so brainwashed in favor of fire, ems, and law enforcement that these cops could have shot this guy while he was laying in the street and they would still be patting these guys on the back in this thread! I just love how long it took for two well-trained law enforcement professionals to take one disorderly moron into custody! What did they even stop him for? J walking? Suspicious activity? Even though they outnumbered him two to one it took kicks to the head, pepper spray, and a taser in addition to 45 seconds of wrestling this guy to get him into custody. I just hope the liberal media gets this video front and center on the morning news tomorrow and we'll see what the public thinks about the actions of these troopers and not just the fan club here on this site! My vote is that their actions were egregious...as usual! Police view the public as the enemy! The old mentality of "protect and serve" is nonexistent nowadays! It's been changed to "command and taze."

I wonder if this is still the case, given the current economy, the status of our failing social security system and the jealousy that much of the public has for pension plans. Might these begin to transition from retention benefits to recruitment tools? However I don't know about too many departments that go to great pains to advertise their LOSAP's.

I know that for me personally, the LOSAP program had no bearing on my willingness to volunteer. I joined when I was 16...I doubt many 16 year old kids are thinking about their retirement (I know for sure that I wasn't). The department that I was in gave $20/year up to 40 years of service for a Max-Out of $800/month. This isn't going to break the bank that's for sure. When I quit the department at 26, the last thing that I was thinking about was my retirement fund. It didn't even cross my mind.

There is one thing that it does accomplish. It results in a bunch of 45-60 year old guys who come to the firehouse after the rigs have left on the run to sign the call sheet so that they get credit. This anomaly is generally intensified between Thanksgiving and Christmas when a number of the fork and knifers come down to look at the points posted on the wall and realize that they are 5 to 10 calls short of getting credit for the year. Then they step-up their loitering for the home stretch.

The guys who are in it because they like to get a little bit of heat are the first ones there and are on the rig in the sleet, snow, and rain regardless of the pension program!