M' Ave

Having been there (well, not this serious), sliding while driving a 57,000 lb. rig....I can tell you, it's pretty unnerving. Good thing it turned out well in the end.....that's a bad hill.

I can't say I'm suprised. This was a long time coming. Football being the exception, I really think people these days prefer venues located much more central to the urban center. New venues like Barclays and Prudential match the convenience of The Garden in terms of transportation access and other amenities like food and such....

There's just too much competition for Izod.

Just curious, how different is the YFD Academy from the Westchester Career Fire Academy? I've heard they use their own instructors, but is there any difference in certifications ?

I'm sure that the curriculum is much more focused on YFD specific operations. I can't speak from experience, but I'm sure that easy comparisons could be made to FDNY Proby School. The basics are largely eclipsed by Dept. specific operations, such as positions in the ladder, positions in the engine and what each companies responsibilities are depending on being 1st due, 2nd due, ect....

I know from checking my transcript with the State OFPC, I didn't' receive many certs by attending The Rock. From my 6 months (yup used to be that long) in the academy I received:

National FireFighter 1& 2

CPAT

Building Construction (Both Combustible and non)

National Haz-Mat Ops.

When you are sent back for Chauffeur training school you don't even receive an EVOC certificate.

The point is, career academies don't have a great need for state courses. They're just too general and each large department has developed their own SOP's and a curriculum that suits their specific needs.

The Westchester Career academy has the challenge of teaching to a range of candidates who will encounter a wider variety of daily operations when they graduate to their individual departments.

Just to add on here:

JetBlue has been pretty supportive of the FDNY/NYPD community in general. Aside from that awesome custom painted plane....they hire a lot of current and former members as crew aboard their aircraft and on the ground. They've got a good family/team atmosphere, supposedly.

How many PD, FD and EMS agencies have a SOP/SOG on the USE OF LIGHTS & SIREN

and enforce it?

We do in the City and it is strictly enforced. No RLS for odors of gas or alarms ringing for 2nd and 3rd due units. Same holds true for automatic alarms and street pull boxes with no contact.

This used to include Manhole emergencies (excluding fire) and, I believe, water conditions (in a building). However, I believe, they were part of some changes. Water does a lot of damage in a short time and you never REALLY know what troubles a manhole emergency could pose.

There might be some more as far as specifics go, but I'm not sure myself.

All this aside.....regulations are only part of the battle. Being able to temper a response using your own judgement is irreplaceable. If you've been doing this long enough, you know what when you can use the siren and lights, but very judiciously and come to a crawl at an intersection, ect....

....and you should know when it's time to step it up a little. Reports of people trapped above a fire, in the apartment or perhaps smoke visible in the air. Could be reports of an unconscious infant or civilian CPR in progress.

Use your head....

Okay.....back on track here.....

How are the Rescues and Haz Mat holding up?

To this, I can only speak from observation. Rescue 3 had a spare for quite a while, but has had the Ferrara back now for sometime. I do recall them having some difficulties at first, but perhaps they've ironed them out. As for Haz-Mat....I truly can't say. It's been a while since I've run in with them, but they did have their primary rig last time did. That is a whole different animal though, it's highly customized and a true one-off. (The most expensive rig in the whole fleet)

WHO SAYS I DON'T HAVE EXPERIENCE ON THEM???? I have 39+ years of service in the Fire Department.

....but you don't have 1 single day working on an FD100....built on the Ultra, Split Tilt cab.......in the FDNY. So.....there's that....

Why should I? If you don't like my Canadian opinion don't read it.

Your opinion isn't the problem. Your lack of respect for the INFORMED opinion of those with extensive hands on experience, is.

You had to much Kool Aid.

I'm sure the view from Canada gives you great insight into the quality of the vehicles.....but I'm sure his is better. I know mine is.

M'ave - this is not NYC, where traveling blocks can take a long time with the traffic, ( Might you I do not have allot of experience in driving down there, but have discussed it with many drivers )so if it what they want to do, so be it... they are FDNY ... and I have read back through this discussion and it seems split of the YES and NO's here... so are we really reading the same thing...

Look if you really feel RLS are needed for mutual aid, so be it, but god help you if your in an accident and someone is killed for a mutual aid stand by... the lawyers will have a field day with it.

I hear you, but you're missing the whole basis of my argument here. If mutual aide is done correctly and resources are spread efficiently, then you would be coming from a distance that requires the use of RLS to reach your new area of responsibility for the duration of the incident keeping the primary agency busy. Being in NYC has no significance in how you allocate resources and how you get them into an under served area. Once again, an area devoid of emergency services IS an emergency.

As for the lawyers....not worried, so long as I'm driving my Engine in a safe manner and operating with "due-regard" for the conditions around me. How am I protected? This:

Straight from "The Books", FDNY Safety Bulletin, Chapter 1, Section 2:

Please don't have any accidents, kill any innocent motorists, or maim any children in min-vans because you're on the way to someone else's firehouse to drink their coffee.

Is that why you're relocating, to drink coffee in someone else's qts? Why go at all then?

Bottom line.... RLS was wrong for this response....

That's exactly the opposite of what a lot of people are saying. Are we reading the same thread?

Mr M'av: I apologize for getting these older details wrong. I thought I had heard that the Union was opposed. I am not sure what you mean by "Pushback from units in the field".

Could you say what calls are low enough to be NON RLS here? Now I am curious...

No worries, just clarifying. When I say field units, I mean individual fire companies and the guys that work "in the field" as opposed to at Headquarters or at The Rock or any other off-line position.

Our non-RLS runs are things like a no contact street pull box. More often the modified response effects the 2nd and 3rd due units. What I mean is, a response to an automatic fire alarm ringing gets a 3 + 2, but only the first engine and truck respond with lights/sirens.Bottom line.... RLS was wrong for this response....

Barry:

1: We agree, 90% should be no RLS. I believe the FDNY union raised a fuss a year or so back becasue they the City wanted things like outside water leaks made into NO RLS, but the Union insisted that such things are RLS. Not sure who won.

No, this is incorrect. In fact, the union is always on the side of responding with more caution while the city is constantly pushing for reduced response times. The FDNY did initiate the modified response policy a few years ago. There are several non-emergency responses, but there are fewer than were outlined in the initial plan. There was some pushback form field units. Response to manhole emergencies were returned to emergency status as were water leaks. The plan is pretty nuanced and has improved to be more realistic. It has certainly reduced minor accidents.

I'm reading a lot of continuing talk about why NOT to respond "RLS", yet all the reasons I read seem to highlight the failings in the system of adequately covering an area and not questioning the method of getting there. If the system is set up to spread coverage to even out a geographical area, then a neighbor shouldn't be moved one town over.

If the fire is in Dobbs Ferry and Irvington, Tarytown and Hastings are operating, then an engine should be moved there from, say, Port Chester and a ladder from say, Peekskill. Thats just an abstract idea, but that's how you spread coverage efficiently. You move people from COMPLETELY uneffected areas to a central location to offer coverage to a group of municipalities that are committed to an emergency. Also.....those relocated units should NOT be sent to the scene, if it can be helped.

The above is why relocating in emergency mode becomes necessary. You need those units to get to the area that needs coverage quickly. When there is a fire in midtown Manhattan, the relocations come from Harlem and Queens. Who says you can't compare this to Westhchester? Forget the municipality, this is just how it should work.

Is, "the odds of there being another emergency are slim" really the argument? If that's the case, then just pack up your fire department to begin with, because there's only a slim chance of disaster......

Stop with the defining of an emergency....too many gray areas. A serious hole in emergency service coverage IS an emergency. No one says to go bombing through red lights, but stop, look and proceed.

I don't understand why there is opposition to responding in emergency mode to cover. Clearly you shouldn't respond as you would to a 10-75, but you need to get where you're going and quickly. When we relocate to another company to cover, we respond in emergency mode, slow and steady, but lights and siren non the less.

You're relocating to another area because at that moment there is inadequate fire protection there. What good am I to the people in, say Riverdale, if I'm 150 blocks away and a 1st due alarm comes in for fire, or anything else? When return, you drive with traffic.

nothings wrong its a nice rig id just rather see Seagrave instead

I'm not sure why....

The O.O.S. time's have been higher on the last few Seagraves delivered than on the first dozer or so KME engines. What's in the name?

No I was implying that many depts. do not even have an officer on the rig

Yes....an issue, a serious one.

You have greater supervision (imagine actually having a trained officer on every engine

Barry, you're not suggesting that the Lt., who spent his whole career in a Truck, supervises the MPO are ya......what does he know?

The smaller hose tube at the bottom gets used pretty frequently. It's commonplace to use it to connect directly to a hydrant.

The larger hose tubes for drafting probably don't get used much at all. It is my understanding that they and the current engine design are primarily for alternate water supply usage in the event that the hydrant system is unusable, like what happened on 9/11 in lower Manhattan.

Just about right!

The lower-most hose is a 4-1/2" flexible hydrant connection, 10' long. It's actually not suction at all, it would collapse. The top two are flexible hard suction, 6". As for how often we draft? Well, if all goes as it should, never. Those lengths should stay right there for 10 years, undisturbed.

:'(

What's wrong?

That is a front bumper mount, it will not fit on a hydrant. If you want to put a 90 degree elbow on the hydrant it is doable, but more shit to unload when you stop at the hydrant. Why not use the side outlet?

And that elbow on the front bumper is a giant waste. Adds $40,000 - &60,000 to the cost (plus additional maintenance costs), the friction loss to get from the front bumper to the pump is equal to 112+ feet of hose (to travel 15 feet) and it reduces the flow by up to 30%. In other words why buy a 1,500gpm pump when you plan to cap its supply at 1,000gpm?

Final issue with the front swivel is that without very good driver discipline, I have seen many cases where the driver will nose into the hydrant, this causes the tail end to push out into the street. Thus blocking other apparatus, including the truck.

I agree, partially. It can lead to some poor behavior, but it can also provide some additional flexibility. All our new engines (since 2008) have had a swivel mounted intake on the front/officers side. If the street is REALLY tight, you can pull up perpendicular to the stree, up on the sidewalk and out of the Trucks way. Sometimes the hydrant is installed backwards(often in fact) with the 4-1/2" facing away from the street! The swivel can help.

1. I am not dumb and 2. I am trying to make a point. Apparently some people don't get the point I am trying to say, dumbo. These hydrants are usually un-noticed by citizens. Better markage (like a no psrking sign painted on the street) would be useful. Many people in our world don't realize that this is a problem. This should be spread out more.

Kid, are you old enough to drive yet?

300 lbs of iron sticking out of the ground isn't enough? Gimme a break.....

Is the SOC support truck the Mack MR chassis on tandem axles that says "Rescue Services" on it.

The one about halfway down the page linked below? From Mike Martinelli's page.

http://www.fdnytrucks.com/files/html/specialunits/soc.htm

No, a SOC Support Truck is a Ladder Company with their typically assigned rig. They have a small second piece, a utility built on a Ford F-something chassis. They carry some extra gear and have some additional training.

Those walk in Rescue style rigs that say Rescue Services are typically spare rescues.

I'm not qualified at high angle rescue so my questions are not a criticism or quarterbacking, they are pure curiosity.....

Who would perform this grab? Truck, Rescue, or other SOC unit?

Would a separate unit be setting up to go down the exterior from the roof should the plan from the interior not work?

Where would the command post be? Lobby or looking out through the windows on the floor where it happened?

What was the initial and final response for the box from a unit standpoint?

There was a unit preparing to descend from above, should going through the glass not work.

The rescue operation was probobly performed by Res. 1, Sq. 18 and the fist due truck.

The command post would have been at ground level and the operations post up above.

As for the initial response? Honestly, I can only guess. There are all sorts of special conditions for boxes like this in Manhattan....I'm just a simple Bronx Boy, the DONT tell us these things. I'm sure it was at least 3&2 with Sq., Res., and a SOC support truck. I'm sure the Rescue Battalion and who knows who else......its a high profile box.

That site is good, but he's not caught up with the new engines yet.

Wouldn't a ticket have been a better option?

Have you SEEN ticket prices!? Through the roof!! LOL.