NYS Dept. Of Labor Law: Where Are The Ropes?

[hudson144 150]

Some depts here in westchester are still behind in distributing the bailout ropes,systems etc. If you have one what did your dept go for? how much did it cost? what training did you recieve? If the dept you are from did not abide by Gov Spitzers law what is being done to correct the non compliance?

[Guest]

I am sure with some of the smaller FD's it will be a money issue if they can abide by it at all.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

There is no department in this state that shouldn't be able to abide by it. Every department has ladders on their rigs and if you could only afford to by 2 ropes a year at least you are showing that you are trying to increase firefighter safety. The law isn't just specific about ropes...I've posted the interpretations on here from the Dept. of Labor that it is risk management based. If the department is that small, then they don't have to buy all that many ropes. If they are that small they are probably dealing with residential and a few commerical buildings not high in heighth, a good egress policy discussing the use of ladders will suffice.

I know of several departments that are in the process of getting the supplies and I know the department I work for is working on it and will require that FF survival be taken then they will be issued a rope and carabiner for self bailout.

[Guest FFNick]

Anyone have a link to a copy of the Law?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I wish CT would pick up something like this... I want to take the FF Safety and Survival class, but I wasn't interior by the time my town had it. I don't want to go out and purchase an expensive bailout system without first understanding its limitations and what is/is not effective. Currently I carry just rope and a carabiner, but I'm looking for something that would require alittle less preparation in the event of a flashover/collapse/etc.

Kudos to Spitzer and DOL for a very progressive FF Safety law, generally speaking you don't see that kind of forward thinking in government when it comes to public safety.

[DCJPells 29]

Anyone have a link to a copy of the Law?

Try these links. First is the law and the second is the draft code (PESH interpretation of the law)

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotect...Doc1.pdf#page=2

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotect...4-07.pdf#page=1

[Guest FFNick]

Try these links. First is the law and the second is the draft code (PESH interpretation of the law)

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotect...Doc1.pdf#page=2

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotect...4-07.pdf#page=1

Thanks - much appreciated.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I am sure with some of the smaller FD's it will be a money issue if they can abide by it at all.

Yeah after all they have to buy their race cars and go on trips to the Carribean before buying tools for safety

[Remember585 815]

Kudos to Spitzer and DOL for a very progressive FF Safety law, generally speaking you don't see that kind of forward thinking in government when it comes to public safety.

It wasn't really forward thinking. It was more of a "reactive" item based on an incident in NYC. I believe FF Jeff Cool spearheaded the campaign, and with the words "IT COULD SAVE LIVES" waved in front of the Governor and other politicians, it was a no-brainer to sign it into law. Especially since it wouldn't cost the State any money.

This was discussed before. The equipment needed is based on each department's own assessment of it's district. We purchased the members with Survival Training 35' of rope and a carbiner a few years ago, before the law. Now we are looking at what other options we have.

What irks me is that all the money spent on these invaluable items has been wasted. I don't mean wasted as in "darn, nobody has bailed yet." I mean that we gave them out and members either lost them or don't even carry them. Mine is still in my pocket, and I pray that neither my guys or I or anyone I know ever has to use them!

[robert benz 344]

It wasn't really forward thinking. It was more of a "reactive" item based on an incident in NYC. I believe FF Jeff Cool spearheaded the campaign, and with the words "IT COULD SAVE LIVES" waved in front of the Governor and other politicians, it was a no-brainer to sign it into law. Especially since it wouldn't cost the State any money.

This was discussed before. The equipment needed is based on each department's own assessment of it's district. We purchased the members with Survival Training 35' of rope and a carbiner a few years ago, before the law. Now we are looking at what other options we have.

What irks me is that all the money spent on these invaluable items has been wasted. I don't mean wasted as in "darn, nobody has bailed yet." I mean that we gave them out and members either lost them or don't even carry them. Mine is still in my pocket, and I pray that neither my guys or I or anyone I know ever has to use them!

If you issued them thru the dept then they should be considered part of your ppe, therefore anytime a member is asked to produce it....

[Beekman 5]

I agree with 585. It was reactive to an incident in NYC but doesn't apply to NYC. Brilliant!! As far as I know from sitting in Nevelle, it was never finalized. All the State Associations missed it being pushed through the Assembly and Senate and even PESH knows its unenforceable because it's so vague and didn't answer a lot of questions. According to PESH, if you have two story buildings, laddering two sides of the building would satisfy the requirement. I know ALS posted the interpretations and that's the problem. Who's interpreting what? It never specified $300 bailout rigs that some departments were told they "had to have".

There was also confusion about who needed the rope. One brilliant combo department bought their fire police rope. There's a waste of money.

Lastly, what good is rope if you don't know how to use it. Maybe it's time to tack on Survival at the end of FF1

If the ropes mess wasn't bad enough, there's another bill somewhere in Albany requiring a portable radio for every firefighter. This ought to be good.

[x129K 1,393]

Lastly, what good is rope if you don't know how to use it. Maybe it's time to tack on Survival at the end of FF1

Damn good idea.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The interpretations issued DOL or the attorney generals office or anywhere else are generally taken in stone of what level or what a law/standard/policy means or has to be enforced. One of the interpretations clearly said that if you have mostly 2 story buildings laddering the building will suffice. But my personal experience is that isn't happening as quickly as it should on most firegrounds...if at all. "F" that. Give your members equipment that will properly protect their rear ends.

Lastly, what good is rope if you don't know how to use it. Maybe it's time to tack on Survival at the end of FF1

What happened to having comprehensive training programs? Taking one course and handing members a rope is not the only answer. Any skill which requires muscle memory and that will be performed under stress should be practiced every 6 to 8 months in order to fight loss of fine and complex motor control that occurs from increased heart rate and for efficiency. The human brain will lose at least 50% of its memory in performing the skill as a reflex in that time frame.

How many districts or departments support training in name only but handcuff training budgets? How about some real funding or leadership on a level that gets things done in regard to training. Talk is cheap...maybe that's why I see so much of it! Spend the money....its not yours...its the customers and if you are spending it on training equipment it is a investment which should pay for itself in use and time!

Do I want the entire Survival curriculum in the Firefighter 1 curriculum. Yes. Do I just add a survival course with the Firefighter 1's I conduct...yes...many Westchester instructors also do. But doing it twice in a class is insufficient.

You want to do more to save lives. Have required training requirements for interior, much like the continuing ed being discussed in Ohio. And don't give me "OSHA," we all know that many of our departments don't do enough with that.

Make sure your interior personnel understand their SCBA's. How to handle SCBA emergencies properly, how the PASS alarm functions, how to do the low profile and full escape correctly and not by talking about it but by simulating it!

Who told departments they "had to have" $300 systems? Manufacturers? Themselves? Commissioners?

If your not necessarily smart enough to ask around through agencies above you who are there to "help" then that's not very smart.

[Beekman 5]

The interpretations issued DOL or the attorney generals office or anywhere else are generally taken in stone of what level or what a law/standard/policy means or has to be enforced. One of the interpretations clearly said that if you have mostly 2 story buildings laddering the building will suffice. But my personal experience is that isn't happening as quickly as it should on most firegrounds...if at all. "F" that. Give your members equipment that will properly protect their rear ends.

What happened to having comprehensive training programs? Taking one course and handing members a rope is not the only answer. Any skill which requires muscle memory and that will be performed under stress should be practiced every 6 to 8 months in order to fight loss of fine and complex motor control that occurs from increased heart rate and for efficiency. The human brain will lose at least 50% of its memory in performing the skill as a reflex in that time frame.

How many districts or departments support training in name only but handcuff training budgets? How about some real funding or leadership on a level that gets things done in regard to training. Talk is cheap...maybe that's why I see so much of it! Spend the money....its not yours...its the customers and if you are spending it on training equipment it is a investment which should pay for itself in use and time!

Do I want the entire Survival curriculum in the Firefighter 1 curriculum. Yes. Do I just add a survival course with the Firefighter 1's I conduct...yes...many Westchester instructors also do. But doing it twice in a class is insufficient.

You want to do more to save lives. Have required training requirements for interior, much like the continuing ed being discussed in Ohio. And don't give me "OSHA," we all know that many of our departments don't do enough with that.

Make sure your interior personnel understand their SCBA's. How to handle SCBA emergencies properly, how the PASS alarm functions, how to do the low profile and full escape correctly and not by talking about it but by simulating it!

Who told departments they "had to have" $300 systems? Manufacturers? Themselves? Commissioners?

If your not necessarily smart enough to ask around through agencies above you who are there to "help" then that's not very smart.

And this is why you and I get along so well.

As for the interpretations- why was one of the interpretations an e-mail forwarded from somebody in the DOL? We all have County Coordinators and nothing went through them. It took a long time for official word to come down especially on something official looking (letterhead), not something you would want to verify on snopes.com. If this whole situation was handled properly it wouldn't have been a packed room topic at the Fire District Convention in Nevelle and is still an issue.

Taking one class and handing a firefighters some rope isn't the answer. The law never mentioned training, just the "have to have". The State didn't pony up money for more Survival classes. The Survival classes in Dutchess have been full. That doesn't even include people taking the class as a refresher. Sure you could do it in house if you have the facilities.

Continuing Ed- I have an Assistant Chief you should speak to and I'm sure others do too.

$300 systems- no clue where that nonsense started. I'll gladly tell you in person the Department that insisted every person in the department needed rope including the Fire Police. I'm not kidding.

As for the original question about Departments not complying. There are still Departments that don't require OSHA/Airborne/Hazmat annual training, physicals and fit testing. Just add this to their list and stuff they don't do.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The law never mentioned training, just the "have to have". The State didn't pony up money for more Survival classes.

800.17(g) (g) Training (1) The employer shall ensure that the firefighter is instructed and trained in the proper use of the safety ropes and system components. (2) Training shall be comprehensive, understandable and recur annually. (3) Training shall include: 3(i) Why the equipment is necessary and how improper fit, usage, and maintenance can compromise the protective effects of the provided ropes and system components. (ii) The limitations and capabilities of the provided ropes and system components. (iii) How to use the rope and system components in emergency situations and in situations where the ropes and system components fail. (iv) How to inspect, put on and remove the ropes and system components. (v) The maintenance and storage requirements for the ropes and system components. (4) The employer shall certify that firefighters have been trained in accordance with this section and that they have demonstrated competence in the use of the ropes and system components.

Looks like the law requires training. Also the survival class does not meet the standard if the dept decides to go with any system (like a harness based system) that is not taught.

[BIGRED1 71]

I Thought they had incorporated Survival into FF1? I could be wrong but i would think that if you are teaching guys to go in on a fire then how to safely get out would be one of the first things you teach. I do remember Survival class and while it was informative, we only bailed out twice ( i did get to do it a third times). I think that we should all be carrying an escape rig, but one issue that i see is that for all the new fancy systems you have to have the Gemtor rig on your gear. I know that this harness is great for raising downed firemen and bailing out but it is an additional $150- $200 on top of the cost of the bail out bag.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

E:

Only portions of the survival skills are incorporated directly into the FF 1 curriculum. Basically wall breach and following a hose line. It didn't include, ladder bail out, rope bailout and 1st floor bailout. That is why you see many of us add a survival onto the announcement being we give the rest as well.

Beekman:

And this is why you and I get along so well.

At least I think we do...lol. I don't know how to take that bro in that context. Unless you want me to stop by the next commissioners meeting and make some "public comments" that are always empty in the posted minutes.

[TCD0415 26]

Much to my heated arguments and displeasure, the Chief of my department has taken the stance that the Rope (Rope) & Carabiner (System) that had been given to all Interior FF's is all that we need and that complies with the law. We even went to Jeff Cool's presentation last year (sending chills up my spine)and still nothing more than a rope and beaner.

In my opinion the law & interpretations are way too loose and need to be tightened up to specify exactly what should be required.

[FirNaTine 370]

What I truly don't understand is if someone is truly concerned for their safety and a municipality isn't complying with that members concern, then why not go out and purchase the unit yourself, and hash it out with them later. Either that or refuse to enter a bldg. due to a safety concern. Hell, I've seen guys numerous times refuse to drive or even ride on a piece of apparatus do to mechanical problems. Just recently I believe, a Mass. FF. refused to report for duty because he felt his life as well as his brother ffs. lives were in jeapordy due to the municipality only having one Ladder Co. and not their usual two. Where are the Unions and the IAFF on this issue. They should be involved, should they not. After all, what the hell are we paying dues to them for.

[robert benz 344]

Much to my heated arguments and displeasure, the Chief of my department has taken the stance that the Rope (Rope) & Carabiner (System) that had been given to all Interior FF's is all that we need and that complies with the law. We even went to Jeff Cool's presentation last year (sending chills up my spine)and still nothing more than a rope and beaner.

In my opinion the law & interpretations are way too loose and need to be tightened up to specify exactly what should be required.

what is wrong with the rope and carabineer?

[TCD0415 26]

The Rope and Caribiner is a way of getting out sure. Safely ? probably not. Will it work? Hopefully.

Either system will require an anchor point of some sort. That part is the same. The difference is after bailing out maintaining control of the rope. The rope alone requires a wrap around your body then holding on with your hand to lower yourself down. The "Systems" have some sort of Descending device which usually is a hands off device which will lock you in until you are ready to lower yourself.

When the crap in hitting the fan I would rather have a system that I don't have to wrap myself in and hold on to and hope I got it right. Set the hook and go......... With the Rope & beaner you need your hands to maintain control. What if your hands got burned and were not able to maintain the rope?

In Jeff Cools seminar, it was discussed that one of the guys that went out the window in NYC, WAS on the end of a rope and Lost control and fell. Not sure if he was one who died or was gravely injured. But their (I say they, cause I wasn't there) opinion of the Rope & Beaner was "It doesn't work" (His Quote)

In Short: If there's a better way to do it, then we should use it. Kinda the same reason that started wearing Bunker Pants instead of 3/4 boots. Its a safer way to go........

Edited February 6, 2008 by TCD0415

[ny10570 745]

The FDNY system is as close to idiot proof as you'll get. Incapacitated FF is just as safe as one with full control as they will hang below the window until they can be lowered by a ladder or someone can operate their device. Its expensive, but its well worth the cost if it saves one life. No matter what you get just make sure you train hard and train often.

[brian19fd 22]

Im not sure if there is any truth to this, but i heard there is going to be an update to the law that came out, in the March/ April time period, to tighten up and clear up those shady areas, to detail what the systems need to have to comply with the law set forth by the govt?!? Is this true, or just hear say from others?!?!

[robert benz 344]

The FDNY system is as close to idiot proof as you'll get. Incapacitated FF is just as safe as one with full control as they will hang below the window until they can be lowered by a ladder or someone can operate their device. Its expensive, but its well worth the cost if it saves one life. No matter what you get just make sure you train hard and train often.

so if the rope and carabineer save one life and is inexpensive it isnt worth it???

I do agree with the statement TRAIN WITH WHATEVER SYSTEM THAT YOU HAVE

[Monty 35]

The Rope and Caribiner is a way of getting out sure. Safely ? probably not. Will it work? Hopefully.

Either system will require an anchor point of some sort. That part is the same. The difference is after bailing out maintaining control of the rope. The rope alone requires a wrap around your body then holding on with your hand to lower yourself down. The "Systems" have some sort of Descending device which usually is a hands off device which will lock you in until you are ready to lower yourself.

When the crap in hitting the fan I would rather have a system that I don't have to wrap myself in and hold on to and hope I got it right. Set the hook and go......... With the Rope & beaner you need your hands to maintain control. What if your hands got burned and were not able to maintain the rope?

In Jeff Cools seminar, it was discussed that one of the guys that went out the window in NYC, WAS on the end of a rope and Lost control and fell. Not sure if he was one who died or was gravely injured. But their (I say they, cause I wasn't there) opinion of the Rope & Beaner was "It doesn't work" (His Quote)

In Short: If there's a better way to do it, then we should use it. Kinda the same reason that started wearing Bunker Pants instead of 3/4 boots. Its a safer way to go........

I'm inclined to agree with at least some others and say that if you have been provided with a bailout rope and carabiner AND been trained on it - then your department is in compliance with the law.

Sure, some of the other systems probably do provide a higher degree of protection - feel free to invest in that yourself. I personally felt that for me a personal rope and carabiner was enough insurance and I got my own a couple of years ago.

Not to beat a dead horse, but a lot of this comes down to money. You could take your case to the extreme in many ways - paid FF's, new PPE every year, new trucks every year etc. As a whole, we need to do more risk analysis. I don't know your response district - but is it very likely you are going to be hanging out of a 5 storey window - or a 2 storey window?

Im not sure if there is any truth to this, but i heard there is going to be an update to the law that came out, in the March/ April time period, to tighten up and clear up those shady areas, to detail what the systems need to have to comply with the law set forth by the govt?!? Is this true, or just hear say from others?!?!

It will be very interesting to see what happens - I doubt very much anything related to funding is going to pass given the current state of our economy. I'm sure there's also plenty of lobbying by FASNY, NYSAFC, IAFF, IAFC etc that I'd be quite surprised and very interested to see how this plays out.

[ny10570 745]

A quality rope and caribiner is cheap enough where there is no excuse for every firefighter to have one. That shouldn't even be an issue. The truth is a system like the FDNY Petzel system (you don't have to use this one, but its the one I'm most familiar with) is far easier, more reliable, and offers greater versatility of application. It is however expensive and there are many depts out there that realistically cannot afford it. These depts do not exist in Westchester. Anyone who's not buying used fire apperatus or accepting donated equipment for frontline service needs to find the room in their budget to properly protect the members. Escape devices are no more essential than SCBA or PPE.

Bailing out the first floor, yeah you don't need anything, but come check out the house I live in. Second floor is about 30' to the ground on side B 15' on side C, and 20' on D. Thats a traumatic fall no matter how you slice it. Go out head first you may not survive and will be spending some time in the ICU. Feet first and you get a hardware store installed. There are three other houses on that block that are nearly identical. What about your 3 story Tudor or victorian style houses. Then there are the McMansions. Any houses in your district that drop off the side of a hill? In Pleasantville is residential suburban community I can thinnk of multiple examples of each of these types and many more that are unsafe to drop from and a few that aren't even possible to ladder.

Just about every town has a nice little commercial stretch in the middle of town. Most run at least 3 stories. Then there are a few of those odd balls taht are significantly taller than you average structure. Where do you think things are most likely to get you jammed up. Your bread and butter 2 story residential or the 6 story commercial that was pre planned years ago and has sinced changed owners and occupants a few times.

If you're still undecided about how necessary a bailout device is, I welcome any of you over. I'll cook and if you can can make it back inside after a trip out a 2nd floor window dinner is on me.

[FirNaTine 370]

Well I guess that leaves one Dept. in particular out of purchasing such needed equipment. They're forever accepting used and donated equipment.

[16fire5 693]

The rope and caribener should do most suburban departments fine. Is cost an issue definatly the FDNY system is very expensive and I myself am on my 3rd bag because the wear and tear. But more importantly I see the issue as training you buy these systems are you going to train on them enough? I know I have iniated weekly training (as opposed to bi-montly) in my volunteer department and it's not extremely popular. And in my opinion the time could be spent on something much more important like training to avoid these situations. Training in recognizing conditions and risk management and others. Should we now equip all members with spare air? More firefighters die from asphixiation.

1. Train on the baics a lot.

2. Keep oriented.

3. Only go above the fire without a line for a known life hazard. I know many of you will disagree with me on this but unless you have a real experienced crew this is probably the right way to go.

4. Consider using VES when going above then the ladder is there for you.

If you can't get your members to comply with facial hair requirements how will you get them to train enough?

[FirNaTine 370]

Never mind facial hair, I've seen guys with dreads in some Depts. Was up wit dat?

[Bnechis 3,961]

so if the rope and carabineer save one life and is inexpensive it isnt worth it???

I do agree with the statement TRAIN WITH WHATEVER SYSTEM THAT YOU HAVE

It appears to me that everyone missed the concept of of Risk Assessment (as required in ALL OSHA and PESH regs).

Whats the risk to ff's?

How many FF's have died in the last 20 years because they jumped, fell (due to no bailout system) or died at a window because of no way down? (My count is less than 15)

How many ff's have died from cardiac issues? (my count is over 750)

How many in responding (and no seat belt use)? (over 500)

Cancer...(unknown)

If we provide mask that dont get used when needed, seat belts that don't get used...

does a harness and bulky rope system that may never be used increase the risks? The extra weight contributing to cardiac stress? THe harness more likely to get a member entangled during a search?

A lot of people are upset that depts are not running out to get them harnesses, but is this the best way to protect our members. How many know that the gemtor or any harness made of nylon melt at 364 degrees, and could be damaged long before you ever need it? What about exposre to chemicals that are found at common incidents?

We looked at all of these issues a year before this law and experimented with a number of different "systems" and felt the best way to protect or members was a smaller, light and simple system.

We have been lucky to have not needed it yet, but I can count dozens of members who I know have had cardiac events on our job.

I'm sure a number of posters will not like what I've written, but again

Whats the real risk to ff's?