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Are Tarrytown Firefighters Getting Hosed?

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Are Tarrytown Firefighters Getting Hosed?

By Dan Wiessner || May 14, 2010

The Riverside Hose Company is fuming over the recent purchase of a fire truck that they say is inferior to a more expensive model; village officials say the process was fair and they saved Tarrytown residents money.

http://tarrytown.patch.com/articles/are-tarrytown-firefighters-getting-hosed

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The article claims that Greenburgh pays $220k a year to Tarrytown to cover the Greenville section of town. Im not trying to start anything, but im just curious if this is correct? If so, why is this done when Greenville has its own career department?

As for Riverside getting a new engine, i hope all works well for them regardless. Ive never been involved with spec'ing a rig, but man, i guess i didnt realize how expensive engines have gotten.

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I'm not picking sides - I am only asking a question. I say again, this is only a question!

Why the need for an engine that holds 10 firefighters? When, if ever, does an engine need to carry so many?

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I'm not picking sides - I am only asking a question. I say again, this is only a question!

Why the need for an engine that holds 10 firefighters? When, if ever, does an engine need to carry so many?

Parades!!!

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I'm not a math wiz, but it's probably a 10-man cab so it can fit 10 people. Just a guess. :lol:

This is a bad sign for all fire departments, volunteer or paid. Once municipalities start making decisions about how many rigs, what type, what pump, etc. a department needs, they're not going to stop there. It will start with the Engine, then the next thing will be a Ladder, then gear, then pagers, etc.

If the guys in Tarrytown felt they needed a 10-man cab (I thought I read somewhere it was going to seat 8) with a xxx GPM pump, xxx gallon tank, etc. - there has to be a legitimate reason, no? Next thing you'll see is the Village Board telling the cops which bullets to get, or that they should buy the cheaper vests.

This has bad news written all over it - not just for Tarrytown either. Other municipalities might hear of this and wonder what they can do too.

Edited by Remember585

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Wait, did I read this right? The consultant worked for Crimson and his department purchased 2 Crimson rigs? Why did Tarrytown FD even have this rig brought to their station in the first place? Something smells fishy here.I don't have a preference either way but I know that Seagrave is a better rig, you get what you pay for.

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Wait, did I read this right? The consultant worked for Crimson and his department purchased 2 Crimson rigs? Why did Tarrytown FD even have this rig brought to their station in the first place? Something smells fishy here.I don't have a preference either way but I know that Seagrave is a better rig, you get what you pay for.

From what I hear, Crimson is a good builder of apparatus. Every manufacturer, when you get down to it, has been known to make great rigs and to make some lousy ones. It's like the old saying, "You don't want to buy a GM car that was built on a Friday..."

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Wait, did I read this right? The consultant worked for Crimson and his department purchased 2 Crimson rigs? Why did Tarrytown FD even have this rig brought to their station in the first place? Something smells fishy here.I don't have a preference either way but I know that Seagrave is a better rig, you get what you pay for.

NO, YOU DID NOT READ IT RIGHT! The person quoted in the article, me, does not, did not, work for Crimson or another apparatus manufacturer. I was contacted by the reporter doing the story because my department has purchased two Crimson apparatus. Nothing fishy here I have been involved in the specification and purchasing of apparatus here for 30 years. The Village has very stringent fiscal policies which were followed, as always. Crimson apparatus was purchased because they were the low bidder.

I informed the reporter in the process of answering his questions about our experience with Crimson that I have done some work for the consultant. I felt it only fair that the reporter knows that, and I have nothing to hide.

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Damn, whining about a $620K engine? Get a real problem. While many of us wouldn't want a Beta model engine, Crimson has built plenty of apparatus to be a significant contender. Having looked into them a bit for our last purchase, the only downside I ever heard of was regarding local dealers, nothing about the builder.

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From what I hear, Crimson is a good builder of apparatus.

To prove a point, I have a feeling Tarrytown firefighters are going do everything to make the Crimson rig a disaster. I can't believe Tarrytown Fire Department officials made such insane, misleading statements to the press. They really should be embarrased. Are they living in a cave? Did they even visit Crimson's website??

As far as references, obviously they didn't do their homework. If these engines work and are proven to hold up in very demanding enviroments such as Dallas, Chicago, and San Francisco, all of which have many in their fleet with large orders pending, then I'm sure that it will work fine in Tarrytown. I understand the trust some departments have in Seagrave, but to throw a fit about this is ridiculous. It's not like they made them get a more budget friendly engine. Crimson builds a very comprable product. Tarrytown is also a department that used E-One almost exclusively for a while, except for that $1 million dollar American Lafrance Tower they bought several years ago. So are they saying all those apparatus do not work for Tarrytown? Does't appear they are falling apart to me. It sounds like a temper tantrum they didn't get what they want and didn't want to go by the bidding process, and they just spotlighted themselves for that.

Crimson builds an excellent, HIGHLY customizable product, and many smaller departments down here in Texas use them. My city here has two, and you can a photo profile of one here:

http://www.emtbravo.com/NewDeliveries/rrfde1.html

and another adjacent district's new Crimson:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=35671

Also, Chicago and Dallas both use them exclusively for all their apparatus needs, and both have large orders for both pumpers and aerials pending.

In addition, San Francisco has 5 Crimson Engines and 3 Crimson Tillers on order.

Crimson is owned by Spartan and engineered for a Spartan chasis, so technically they are a single source builder.

I don't think Tarrytown will be dissapointed. If they work and hold up in Dallas, Chicago, etc I'm sure that they'll hold up in Tarrytown just fine. But their actions worry me that they are going to make a spectable about this, and if I were Crimson I wouldn't want their business.

Besides, shouldn't we be writing generic specs anyways?

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My mistake I thought you were also the consultant sorry for any confusion on my part

NO, YOU DID NOT READ IT RIGHT! The person quoted in the article, me, does not, did not, work for Crimson or another apparatus manufacturer. I was contacted by the reporter doing the story because my department has purchased two Crimson apparatus. Nothing fishy here I have been involved in the specification and purchasing of apparatus here for 30 years. The Village has very stringent fiscal policies which were followed, as always. Crimson apparatus was purchased because they were the low bidder.

I informed the reporter in the process of answering his questions about our experience with Crimson that I have done some work for the consultant. I felt it only fair that the reporter knows that, and I have nothing to hide.

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Dealers and service are a big part of any purchase. An out of service piece is of no use to anyone.

Damn, whining about a $620K engine? Get a real problem. While many of us wouldn't want a Beta model engine, Crimson has built plenty of apparatus to be a significant contender. Having looked into them a bit for our last purchase, the only downside I ever heard of was regarding local dealers, nothing about the builder.

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Wait, did I read this right? The consultant worked for Crimson and his department purchased 2 Crimson rigs? Why did Tarrytown FD even have this rig brought to their station in the first place? Something smells fishy here.I don't have a preference either way but I know that Seagrave is a better rig, you get what you pay for.

A person quoted in the article works as a consultant and operates in a department that has Crimson rigs. There is no relationship between the consultancy and Crimson.

While it is true that you get what you pay for, it is also true that there are economical but quality options in any purchase. Spending more money is not always a guarantee of quality.

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I'm not a math wiz, but it's probably a 10-man cab so it can fit 10 people. Just a guess. :lol:

This is a bad sign for all fire departments, volunteer or paid. Once municipalities start making decisions about how many rigs, what type, what pump, etc. a department needs, they're not going to stop there. It will start with the Engine, then the next thing will be a Ladder, then gear, then pagers, etc.

If the guys in Tarrytown felt they needed a 10-man cab (I thought I read somewhere it was going to seat 8) with a xxx GPM pump, xxx gallon tank, etc. - there has to be a legitimate reason, no? Next thing you'll see is the Village Board telling the cops which bullets to get, or that they should buy the cheaper vests.

This has bad news written all over it - not just for Tarrytown either. Other municipalities might hear of this and wonder what they can do too.

There are legal obligations for procurement by a political subdivision or with public funds and that generally requires the acceptance of the lowest bid of the qualified bids received. The purchase of apparatus and/or equipment is generally not exempt from these requirements so specifying a single manufacturer may not be appropriate (as cited in the article).

My question is why is a 10 person cab necessary - not for Tarrytown but for any FD? Most departments respond with 4-5 at most don't they? NFPA standards are for an officer plus four, right? Why double that especially in a small district where there aren't long response times or transport distances?

This is municipal oversight and entirely appropriate especially in these days. There are entirely too many examples of political subdivisions not following purchasing guidelines - just go to the AG website and see all the reports where such problems are described.

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The 10 man cab was speced because they are the designated mutual aid company.

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The article claims that Greenburgh pays $220k a year to Tarrytown to cover the Greenville section of town. Im not trying to start anything, but im just curious if this is correct? If so, why is this done when Greenville has its own career department?

As for Riverside getting a new engine, i hope all works well for them regardless. Ive never been involved with spec'ing a rig, but man, i guess i didnt realize how expensive engines have gotten.

The area Tarrytown covers is Glenville. Completely separate and no where near Greenville.

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The 10 man cab was speced because they are the designated mutual aid company.

Not only that but what if they actually do get all 10 seats filled more than half the time? I am not a TFD firefighter and I barely know a few of them but if they can get a good number of the ten seats filled on any given day, 50% of the time is it not worth it? I am sure the IC or officer would much rather have all of his men arrive on a single piece of apparatus and be able to instruct and divide them from their than having them be stuck at the station or having to use a POV to respond. Additionally regardless of the benefits seen in Phoenix, I am also sure most firefighters want a seat with an SCBA built in and I am willing to bet that there is a major difference in the number of seats in the Seagrave that hold SCBAs as compared to the Crimson.

However, that is semantics because what we are essentially debating here is a name, and as been discussed here many times, the name counts for sh#t, its the specs and how it performs and operates that counts.

I do not have an opinion regarding Tarrytowns situation one way or another, mainly because its not my town, not my money and not my business at all; but all of the Crimson rigs that I have seen have been high quality and have had high reviews.

Edited by bvfdjc316

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The 10 man cab was speced because they are the designated mutual aid company.

Is staffing of 10 the normal mutual aid complement?

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I don't know the answer to that. I do know for planned mutual aid coverage they do get 10 guys to cover.

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Is staffing of 10 the normal mutual aid complement?

Regardless, is 10 guys in an engine safe? Isn't the trend going towards all foward facing seats like I have been seeing in most new deliveries nowadays?

And is every seat a SCBA seat? If so, it must get crowded in there.......

I know that Tarrytown can put out that kind of manpower, and that Seagrave may be the only manufacturer nowadays able to provide a cab like that. Regardless, see my previous post on Crimson.....

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The area Tarrytown covers is Glenville. Completely separate and no where near Greenville.

GFD70, thanks for answering me and clearing things up, much appreciated bro. I do have an eye doctor appointment tomorrow lol, but i re-read the article and it does say Greenville. So, definately a spelling error. But thanks for clearing that up regardless, i was quite confused.

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There are legal obligations for procurement by a political subdivision or with public funds and that generally requires the acceptance of the lowest bid of the qualified bids received. The purchase of apparatus and/or equipment is generally not exempt from these requirements so specifying a single manufacturer may not be appropriate (as cited in the article).

Thanks Chris, I am well aware of the bid process. If Crimson had a rig that met the specs and came in as the lowest price, then there really is no argument. If the rig spec'd is not being purchased and the Village is picking what to get, that's a slippery slope to be on. It will continue, mark my words, and it will trickle into purchases for other departments and even communities that see this happening.

My question is why is a 10 person cab necessary - not for Tarrytown but for any FD? Most departments respond with 4-5 at most don't they? NFPA standards are for an officer plus four, right? Why double that especially in a small district where there aren't long response times or transport distances?

Some departments respond with a driver only - some sit on the apron and wait on sufficient personnel to show up. All I know about Tarrytown is that E80 is their Mutual Aid Engine, so if they're on a standby or going to work, the more the merrier. The same arguement can be made as to why paid/combo departments running with a driver only or only 2-3 firefighters get 6 seats in their cabs. It's because smarter departments don't want to fit 50 pounds of $hit in a 5 pound sack. Or in this case, a smaller cab.

This is municipal oversight and entirely appropriate especially in these days. There are entirely too many examples of political subdivisions not following purchasing guidelines - just go to the AG website and see all the reports where such problems are described.

Nothing wrong with ensuring purchases are monitored and following the letter of the law. My issue is with government heads looking at the dollars and cents - but ignoring the input and needs of a department, whether paid/volunteer, PD, FD, DPW. Should a municipality's leaders tell DPW what saws to buy, PD what guns to get and FD's what apparatus to buy? I don't think so.

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Ive never been involved with spec'ing a rig, but man, i guess i didnt realize how expensive engines have gotten.

Well I have spec'ed rigs and even I can't spend that much on an engine.

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Is staffing of 10 the normal mutual aid complement?

Define "normal." The only thing that happens "normally" in Westchester is that nobody agrees on anything.

Some places send only 4 members (that's all they have), and others send 10-20 because they have the manpower. We've gone on Mutual Aid runs with packed rigs, and we've gone with only 5.

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Well I have spec'ed rigs and even I can't spend that much on an engine.

You're not trying hard enough. The next NRFD Engine should be a Pumper/Tanker/Heavy Rescue for your I95 jobs... ;)

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Regardless, is 10 guys in an engine safe? Isn't the trend going towards all foward facing seats like I have been seeing in most new deliveries nowadays?

If they are all seated and seat-belted as required in the NFPA recommendations, I don't think it would matter how many people are in there.

And is every seat a SCBA seat? If so, it must get crowded in there.......

It may be tough, but it isn't like others haven't done it. Some places are keeping tools and SCBAs out of the cabs because they're realizing how crowded it can get.

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So, maybe someone from Tarrytown can weigh in here...

What are the differences between the Crimson and the Seagrave that resulted in the $68,000 difference.

Drivetrain?

Building materials?

Warranties?

Equipment?

Perhaps if we all knew the differences in the rigs, it would make some more sense one way or the other...

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Village officials look at things with dollar signs in their eyes and tax increases are on everyones mind. The firefighters might be looking for "A" type of apparatus as stated inthe article. who is right?? If the Village can buy a front line piece of apparatus and save tax dollars so be it. Sometimes the firefighters can't always have all the toys they want, or at least the most expensive toys. Hey at least the village said they woudl buy a new fire apparatus-- they could have said no and kept Riverside hose another 4 or 5 years.

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This is a bad sign for all fire departments, volunteer or paid. Once municipalities start making decisions about how many rigs, what type, what pump, etc. a department needs, they're not going to stop there. It will start with the Engine, then the next thing will be a Ladder, then gear, then pagers, etc..................there has to be a legitimate reason, no? Next thing you'll see is the Village Board telling the cops which bullets to get, or that they should buy the cheaper vests.

This has bad news written all over it - not just for Tarrytown either. Other municipalities might hear of this and wonder what they can do too.

I disagree, to many FD's dont really have a "ligitimate" reason and there needs to be some oversight. This issue is happening because FD's are bringing it on themselves.

In the past few years I have seen specs that required the apparatus to be "built with 5 miles of Appletone WI" or another that required the "mudflaps to have the manufactures name in script with its 3 color logo on it"

The NYS comptroler calls this Bid Rigging and it is a crime.

If you can prove it is better and needed is one thing, but the proof needs to be able to hold up in court.

I have also seen depts that want the taxpayers to pay for things like a 3,000 gpm pump so that we will have the biggest pump in the county and we will get called to all the big mutual aid jobs...hello, you want your taxpayers to spend $$ on a rig to protect everyone else?

It sounds like a temper tantrum they didn't get what they want and didn't want to go by the bidding process, and they just spotlighted themselves for that.

Besides, shouldn't we be writing generic specs anyways?

My understanding is they wanted a Seagrave and when the village board tossed out the last bid for this rig (last fall) it was because they only got 1 bidder (seagrave) could it be that they wrote something in the spec to keep everyone else out of the bidding? hmmmmmmmmm

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So, maybe someone from Tarrytown can weigh in here...

What are the differences between the Crimson and the Seagrave that resulted in the $68,000 difference.

Drivetrain?

Building materials?

Warranties?

Equipment?

Perhaps if we all knew the differences in the rigs, it would make some more sense one way or the other...

The spec would have to specify the drive train, the building materials, the warranties & the equipment, unless one manufacturer took exceptions to the specs and the purchaser agreed

Generally the only major difference is the method of construction.

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