Hose Set-Ups

[SageVigiles 1,194]

In effort to move this forum back towards discussing actual firefighting stuff...

What hose loads are on your apparatus for attack/supply? What's the rationale behind them?

Rescue Engine 827 (Morningside, MD) - Has a 500 gallon tank

Crosslays:

• (2) 200' 1 3/4" preconnected attack lines with TSM-20 fog nozzles (wrapped), packed as a minuteman load. One off the Driver's side, one off the Officer's. Each section is 100'.
• (1) 250' 2" preconnected attack line with a smooth bore stacked tip nozzle (wrapped), packed as a minute man load. Runs off the Officer's side. Nozzle section is 100', backup section is 150'.

Bumper Trash Line:

• 100' of 1.5" preconnected line with a TSM-10 fog nozzle. First 50' are rolled, last 50' are folded with ears out for quick deployment. (This is sometimes falsely referred to as the Kentland load, but a ton of companies down here use it)

Off the rear:

• 1600' of 3" supply line. Last 50' set up as a "Layout Pack": Accordion folded with a 2.5" double-male, 2.5" female to 1.5" male reducer, and a 1.5" blind cap. That pack is wrapped with a halyard rope that also has a hydrant wrench. Layout man pulls this and typically drops it at the hydrant or the entrance to the complex. The reducers allow us to extend attack lines into the courtyards of garden apartment complexes or into large commercial occupancies if we are not using it as a supply line.
• 200' of 2.5 packed as a minuteman load with a gated wye, to two 1.5" threads. Each section is 100'. An alternate solution that allows us to extend attack lines if the layout pack is used for supply.
• 400' 1 3/4" preconnected attack line with TSM-20 fog nozzle (wrapped), packed in three sections. First section is 100', second section is 150', third section is 150'. Lineman shoulders the first section, Backup shoulders the second and pulls the third, dumping it onto the ground. Backup then grabs a coupling from the third (aka the Dump) section and moves with it.

Standpipe Racks:

• 100' of 1 3/4" attack line with TSM-20 fog nozzle
• 100' of 1 3/4" attack line with smooth bore nozzle.
• "Officer's Pack:" Short shot of 2.5" hose with a gated wye and 50" of 1 3/4" attack line

Edited February 3, 2015 by SageVigiles

[robert benz 344]

what do you use for supply lines?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

what do you use for supply lines?

Sorry that was a typo on my part, that was supposed to say 1600' of 3" supply line. Corrected.

We pretty much exclusively use 3" or 4" (our Engine has 4" line, but is currently out for a refurb that will change our hose loads, so I didn't include it in this post) We also have short shots of 5" soft supply line if we are right next to a hydrant.

Edited February 3, 2015 by SageVigiles

[STAT213 332]

Quite the variations and set up on that pump. 400' of 1 3/4 seems like a loooooonnnng stretch. PDP must be up there, depending on what that fog nozzle needs. Why not reduce friction loss by using a 100 2 1/2 leader line?

Anyway...

My engine in Derry, NH.

1000 gallon tank.

1000' of 4".

600 feet of flat loaded 2 1/2 with a wye at the end for our occasional long stretches.

100' 1 3/4 in a bundle with breakaway fog/smooth bore nozzle and a 50' donut roll. Called our high rise pack, used to attach to the of the 2 1/2 listed above.

200' 2 1/2 flat load off the rear with TFT fog nozzle.

200' 1 3/4 flat load off the rear with TFT fog nozzle.

Two 1 3/4 200' crosslays, one with solid bore, one with TFT fog nozzle.

200' 2 1/2 crosslay with TFT fog nozzle.

That's it folks. As with most places, our hose loads are revised like our SOGs, and can take a while to have change.

Nice thing about our lays is that they give us flexibility, and they are built around OUR buildings. There is ONE garden style apt that we can't hit with the 200' crosslay. Our building mix is mostly single or two family residential, and then a bunch of apartments.

[on the job 68]

First off... love this topic, love hydraulics when it comes to GPM, NP, NR.

I see Morningside,MD engine "off the rear" has a 400' 1 3/4" preconnected with a fog nozzle.

Just curious... what kind of pump pressure do you pump, to get the correct nozzle pressure (fog nozzle) on that long lay or on a third/forth floor fire with that small line ???

I have been told by smarter people then me, NO more then six lengths on the 1 3/4 hand line.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Just curious... what kind of pump pressure do you pump, to get the correct nozzle pressure (fog nozzle) on that long lay or on a third/forth floor fire with that small line ???

I have been told by smarter people then me, NO more then six lengths on the 1 3/4 hand line.

Good question......you'd need 160 psi, just to overcome friction loss. Add the 70 +/- psi at the nozzle and you've got the engine screaming and you're only going 400'

Our bed has 2 loads that lead with 1 1/4". They're both 6 lengths of 1 1/4" over 10 lengths of 2 1/2". Some places will use fewer lengths of 1 3/4" and more 2 1/2", but always 16 lengths. With our standard 15/16" smooth bore tip, we'll need a minimum of 220psi at the panel to achieve the flow we want. That leaves you 30psi to account for additional elevation (higher floors). 250psi is the limit without authorization and a lot of safety procedures....

[IFCO3080 26]

Sorry that was a typo on my part, that was supposed to say 1600' of 3" supply line. Corrected.

We pretty much exclusively use 3" or 4" (our Engine has 4" line, but is currently out for a refurb that will change our hose loads, so I didn't include it in this post) We also have short shots of 5" soft supply line if we are right next to a hydrant.

Alex

Is your three inch set up for a split lay or just one single lay down the street?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

As for the 400', I thought that was a pretty ridiculous line when I first came down here. But we run a LOT of apartment fires, and due to the way our first due is set up (Andrews AFB takes a big chunk out of it) we run as 2nd arriving wagon pretty often. We practice running the 400' very frequently (more frequently than any other attack line, since its the hardest to run) so that everyone here has it down smooth, and it lets us catch up to the first arriving company pretty quickly. Everything down here is set up for speed, and our guys take pride in making sure our stretches are both smooth and fast. But when you're running a 5-6 man engine most of the time, it certainly makes things easier.

for the leader line and the layout pack, it does get used occasionally to extend the 400' (yes, a line longer than 400'.) Not something that happens often and in terms of speed, its another thing we have to really practice a lot with to get proficient in. We were doing that on Sunday, actually.

I am not a Chauffeur or a mathmatologist, so the pressures and all aren't exactly my wheelhouse, but I've asked a few different guys who run the pump panel and they typically start the 400' out at around 200psi then work from there, depending on if we're going up or down (lots of terrace level fires here.) But we never have a problem with too little pressure on the line.

Alex

Is your three inch set up for a split lay or just one single lay down the street?

I forgot to mention that, the 3" is loaded into two separate beds. If we need to lay out with 2 lines there is a double-male attaching the hose section that connect the two beds that can be broken by the layout man. I knew I was forgetting something...

I'll try to take pictures of everything next time I'm at the station, the photos we have up on our site now are inaccurate, as we've changed the supply loads in the last few months.

[FirNaTine 370]

Just out of curiosity where do Depts. take their backup lines from? Ist Due Engine or 2nd Due?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our first due runs with the following:

(2) 200 ft. preconnected 1.75" lines in donut roll trays on the front bumper, (1) 15/16"SB and (1) Vindicator VHA

(1) 200 ft. preconnected 1.75" line in donut roll tray in the left rear compartment, tipped out with a SM30 fog nozzle

Rear bed:

1300 ft. 5" LDH supply

(1) 400 ft 3" preconnected RAM monitor with SB tips

(1) 400 ft. 2.5" preconnect with SB stacked tips on top of 200ft. additional 2.5" hose

The front bumper loads can be conencted together to deploy a rapid 400ft. 1.75" line for rear porches, buildings in the rear, alleys etc. We utilize the Vindicator tip for this which allows us to flow 180 gpm at 210 psi EP. This isn't a regularly utilized line, but an option that's been drilled on. Given the small crew size, this may be the fastest way to get water on the fire and as long as we don't try doing this while flowing multiple lines, the pump can produce the 180-200 gpm easily at 210 psi. This was laid out having flow tested our own Ponn Supreme hose and utilizing the VHA to get a FL of just 42 psi at 180 gpm @ 40 psi NP.

And when at all possible the back-up line comes off a separate engine.

Edited February 4, 2015 by antiquefirelt

[Remember585 815]

Our Engine is set up as follows;

(1) 100' 1.75" bumper line, preconnected with fog nozzle. We refer to it as a trash line.

(3) 200' 2" crosslays. Two have smoothbore nozzles, 1 has a fog nozzle.

(1) 400' 2.5" preconnect off back with smoothbore nozzle.

(1) 600' 2.5" deadlay with gated Y for courtyard/warehouse stretching.

(1) 1500' bed of 5" LDH supply hose.

(1) 600' bed of spare 1.75" hose, (soon to be replaced with 2").

The pump panel steps on both sides have 25' lengths of 5" for the MPO to make short hook ups.

We have tried 2" in the past with mixed - usually negative - results. We switched the smoothbore tips to 1" and saw a marked improvement in Nozzle Pressure and manueverability. We also realize that we could be getting our first line in to place with as little as two firefighters, so it is nice to have mroe water and more reach.

[16fire5 693]

The formulas we use are so antiquated that they really don't tell us what we need to know. The NFPA did a research study on this a few years ago and they found the coefficients we use are too high. They also found out what seems pretty logical that these values vary between not only manufacturers but even different model lines. You could read the whole report and your head might explode. The best advice I have is to get some inline flow meters and test your actual set-ups then use your P-touch label maker and put them over the discharge as a starting point for the shifts when your least capable chauffeur has the wheel.

http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/determination-of-fire-hose-friction-loss-characteristics

[FirNaTine 370]

your least capable chauffeur has the wheel.

http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/determination-of-fire-hose-friction-loss-characteristics

And this in a nut shell is all too common unfortunately!

[Bnechis 3,961]

We have standardized our 3 newest engines (and in the future the other rigs as they are replaced will change to this):

Front bumper: nothing (members advised they would rather stretch the same way for trash, brush, car or a structure fire.)

Cross Lay 1: Deadload 200' High Pressure 3" Hose with a gated wye. Used for court yard stretch & supplying FDC.

Cross Lay 2: Deadload 200' x 2 1/2" Hose with akron mini monitor

Rear 1: Deadload 600' x 1 3/4" w/ Task Force Fog. Max stretch is generally 300' leaving a second line available underneath.

Rear 2: Deadload 800' x 2" w/ straight nozzle.

Rear 3: Deadload 600' x 2 1/2" w Straight nozzle

Rear 4: Deadload 800' x 5" LDH Supply

Units also carry:

3) 75' x 2" Standpipe Hose with straight nozzle.

1) 50' x 2 1/2" Standpipe hose

2) 25' x 5" LDH in the pump panel running boards

1) 50' x 5" LDH rolled in pump operators compartment

[antiquefirelt 994]

The formulas we use are so antiquated that they really don't tell us what we need to know. The NFPA did a research study on this a few years ago and they found the coefficients we use are too high. They also found out what seems pretty logical that these values vary between not only manufacturers but even different model lines. You could read the whole report and your head might explode. The best advice I have is to get some inline flow meters and test your actual set-ups then use your P-touch label maker and put them over the discharge as a starting point for the shifts when your least capable chauffeur has the wheel.

http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/reports-and-proceedings/for-emergency-responders/fireground-operations/determination-of-fire-hose-friction-loss-characteristics

We "proofed" our flowmeters on one engine then used that to evaluate 1.75" hose for purchase, finding the true FL at typical flows. We found the formulas and rules of thumb we used for our most common lines (1.75") were off a bit. Of course we purchased hose with a larger inside diameter, but nonetheless, we flow what we deploy in the most efficient manner this way. Depending on your pumps piping it's a good idea to flow test the actual preconnects to determine each one's EP as the piping can be a factor.

Edited February 5, 2015 by antiquefirelt