JM15

I dont like it one bit.....I understand it..but don't like it..
I find it has eliminated alot of converation here, good, bad, or indifferent...there have been many photos posted here i would have commented on..

Well put.. remember a picture is just a snapshot of a short amount of time in real life.

Great Point... Is there any medical training in the academy for Police? I would like to see at minimum CFR.

Well done FDMV. This is truly another step in the right direction! Well done and lets all hope that the courts decide in favor of merit!

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!!

Professionalism has far more to do with attitude than it does with paychecks.

They are disposable buildings if they are stand alone but you still have to account for anyone who may have been inside. Many where I work are 24 or near 24 hour operations now and for those that aren't..that's the time the cleaning crew and equipment maintenance people are in there and you have to do your best within the risk vs. management decision process.
Big water period. 2 1/2's and if you can...take your aerial master stream and get it ground level and shoot up and in...and (some will disagree) SMOOTH BORE!!! Know the GPM of your tip sizes...tactically I start with no less then 1 1/2" tip for master streams.
As far as a plaque...good luck. As I say in my classes when we talk tactics about these buildings..there won't even be a plaque and a kid will be eating a happy mean on top of where your a** died.
All I definitely know is this..my life and the guys I work with lives are not worth a building...particularly these types of buildings.

That's a decent question. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback based on my own area, but I'd have little chance at knowing all the little details of Hartsdale, that a fire officer has to use to make these decisions. I'd say I wouldn't want to delay getting water on the fire 99% of the time. If this was going defensive from minute 1? Maybe the delay would be worth it. Again, from my limited view on Google Earth, I'd look at positioning the first due engine near or in the driveway to allow a 50-75' section of street out front for a 100ft. aerial. That doesn't account for laying an LDH line in to augment a poor hydrant out front. Trust me, on any given day we all have to make decisions and live with them. Sometimes they truly are the best for the situation at hand, other times we realize later some of the alternatives we hadn't considered or accounted enough for. That's why this business is not a science, but not quite all an artform either.One of the points here is that officers have to make snap decisions based on the conditions they see in a very short time, with not even half of the information they wished they had, and accounting for what they already know. Often this falls back to what's worked or not worked in similar situation in the past. The fewer experiences to fall back on, the harder the decision.
Again, I'm not trying to find fault with this job, merely peaking into how we as the American Fire Service do things, similar or differently regions to region, state to state, town to town.
On the roof sheathing, I was interested in that we have relatively few slate roofs. But in a former life, I was a carpenter and we built one McMansion with a slate roof. The slate roof company required that we skip sheath the roof. We also did this with wood shingles and it would stand to reason that after breaking a few slates off the fire would rapidly open the vent hole for you!

I am on a little bit of a fact finding mission. So...I am hoping that Bravo is still a good place to find help and/or answers or generally to see what departments do, think, operate with, and use...Please Bear With Me
Gas Detectors:
Looking into refitting our department with a new Gas Dectection System. Right now we carry one (4) four gas (o2, h2s, lel, co) unit on each engine and one on the rescue. Each chief car is equipped with a single (co) unit. So...
What companies are out there?
Any recommendations?
How do you calibrate, bump test and document and/or ensure that the units are in top working condition? (Obviously I am a vollie and daily and/or shift checks are hard, so a weekly check is done), so the problem arises on how to have an effective, cost effeceint and accountable program.
Bail-Out Systems:
This is actually just a simple question and I am looking for people that are more informed then myself on the latest ideas, theories and ideas on the subject (maybe some chiefs or instructors can chime in on this one)
It has been said to me that the growing consensus and best procedures for 'bailing out' is to simply ditch and disgard your air pack prior to the bailing out. In simple words..take off your air pack and then proceed to go out the window and lower yourself with your required department 'bail-out' system.
Some background and my idea....There is currently a debate in our department on which type of system to purchase for the required bailout systems. (yes I know we are far behind the ball on this) 1) the harness system you wear on your bunker pants or 2) an intergrated system that is 'in' and part of your air pack
Now I am not married to either so I figure as long as it gets me out of trouble I dont care..but being a in upper management now cost, training ease, implementation, maintence, accountability are all factors....It was told to me that the current consesus and idea being progressively pushed in the fire service is, as stated above, to ditch and disgard your pack prior to bailing...Is this the case?
I took firefighting essentials 14 years ago, I have taken a few safety and survival seminars and classes and I dont remember this being the case. Even as recent as this summer watching my people go through some bail-out evolutions they did not seem to take this approach. I have always beleived and been taught that our air pack is our life and you hold on to it for dear life.
So any ideas and or has anyone heard more about this or read articles and is this what we should be leaning towards?
Sorry for the rambling and any thoughts on these subjects is greatly appreciated
Mike

Bump This is tomorrow.... It looks like it is going to be rain or shine

^^^Excellent post, really sums everything up perfectly.
Yes, it's class time on EMTBravo, which always seems to be given by the members who are eager to share the wealth of knowledge from their 3 years in the volunteer fire service.
You can argue semantics all you want, but at the end of the day, fire departments are funded by tax money (and EMS billing if they're savvy/sketchy enough to split that portion off into a separate entity like some districts). If you honestly believe that every single non-firematic expense of a district, professional or volunteer, is paid for solely through 2% money or fundraising, then you're being purposefully obtuse.
Furthermore, I would argue that an overwhelming majority of the public has absolutely no idea of the differences implied by signs that read "Support X Fire District", versus "Support X Fire Company." You can argue that that's not your problem, but then it veers into the murky area of misleading the public.
Either way, this is a simple contract dispute that will be settled by a grievance, and rather quickly.

I would have to think that highway oriented police officers would be more than capable of operations. That said, how many pd officers get struck as to fd members while operating on the highway? More calls equal more exposure to the risks. That being said, we have 2 different jobs while on the highway, yet the same responsibility to make it home alive after the call. I always hear about the traffic delay that the Fd can cause by blocking a lane(s), yet when the pd has to do their job of reconstructing an accident scene, the whole roadway can be shut down for as long as needed. Why? Because it is safer to do so!!
So the bottom line is the safest way to handle the scene, should be the most important decision made by PD/FD/EMS.

I'm an EPA (40 hour) HAZMAT tech and am applying to the New Haven Area Special Hazards Team through my membership with the Wallingford Fire Department, with hopes to take the longer NFPA 472 class, as soon as I can find someone to pay for it.. I've taken multiple HAZMAT courses in college and its definitely an area I'm interested in and have some abilities in. So yeah, by summer I'll be on a team. Besides the fact that Anniston DOESN'T require you to be a HAZMAT Technician at all. This definitely won't be my first time taking a HAZMAT course, and its a great resume builder when I go to apply for federal law enforcement.

And what is your specific reason for going? - are you a member of a hazmat team - local, regional ? I don't think you will make the cut - Uncle Sam is not just picking up the tab for buffs or because it is on your list!- The Emperor has no clothes!
Many Career Depts have sent members to these classes because Uncle Sam is picking up the tab = Most of this Depts cant meet NFPA standards for a structure fire let alone a hazmat incident - but it is free lets go to Anniston, Nevada, wherever else - it really does'nt matter if we can respond as long as the buffs have the certificate - Buff out!

One of the things you will learn is that things like badges aren't as important as having a reputation as somebody who can be counted upon in a pinch. Badges aren't as important as having a reputation of somebody willing to pitch in when the work needs to be done. Badges aren't as important as having a reputation of being willing to learn from those more experienced. Badges aren't important because it takes more than a piece of tin to make you a firefighter. And always be willing to worry about the rules because they are important. I wouldn't worry about a badge because there is much to learn and the badge won't do much to teach you but flash it the wrong place or the wrong time and you may wish they never gave it to you.

So you're committing between 6-8 firefighters to the first line? Huh, must be pretty important to get water on the fire!
I like to use you guys (FDNY) as an example when teaching/speaking about the importance of the first line. If FDNY uses the first two engines to ensure placement of the first line, why are much less staffed FD's stretching multiple lines before the first is even flowing? Far too often we see small career, combo or volunteer FD's assign two firefighters to the the first line. These guys beat themselves up in good shape if the fire is above the first floor and around ore than one corner from the entrance door, yet helping this line becomes secondary to the "all important" back-up line, who by now is more likely to be needed.

The driveway is long, windy and uphill. Luckily E118 had their chains on, because even though the driveway was plowed to fit a car, the width of the apparatus was larger, so the tires were digging in the snow to climb the hill. E118 stopped about 700' up the driveway and stretched their lines (rougly 200 - 300' each) to the fire building. One line went on to the roof of the large garage to hit the 2nd floor, the other to the front door. The fire appeared to have started on the first floor and went up the stairwell to the second floor. The first floor had holes just inside the front door, the stairs were almost gone, the second floor was fully involved and the roof was gone on my arrival. To add to it, there was a BBQ grill on the garage roof, which was used like a patio area, and one of the tanks let go on my arrival, thus why I said the fire was gas fed. It wasn't until we knocked down the bulk of the fire that I realized what it actually was.
All of the hydrants in the area were buried in snow, which had to be dug out. To add to things, the pressure was so low (the tanks are below this location and it's the end of the system) that we couldn't rely on our 5" LDH so 3" had to be used. I called for our "Tanker Task Force" to bring more water, which greatly assisted us by way of nursing. The first two lines made a big impact using just tank water, and the established water supplies aided in the overall extinguishment of this fire. While the water supply was being worked on, tank water from the Engines was used. We used between 50 - 75 gallons of foam to ensure all was extinguished as well at the end. Even though we had over 40 members on scene, plus another 30 or so from Mutual Aid, we were behind on this fire before we even got called. We heard from people that this fire was visible on the Tappan Zee Bridge, and many Mutual Aid units (and our own) saw it from miles away because of where it was located. I saw it from a distance and gave the "10-75."
Unfortunately, the family dog perished.
Units on scene:
Croton FD: 2082, E118, E119, E120, TL44, T10 (R18 OOS)
Ossining FD: 2332, 2334, E98, U51 FAST
Buchanan FD: 2551, 2553, U12 CASCADE
Millwood FD: 2252, T15
Yorktown FD: T14
Continental Village FD: 2131, 2133, T11
Croton EMS: 5513, 55B2
Cortlandt VAC: 88B3
Ossining EMS: 36M1, 7405
Pleasantville VAC: Rehab Unit
WCDES: Battalion 10, EMS 11, C&O Zone 4
Relocated to Croton Station 3: Montrose E123, Briarcliff TL40
And yeah, I said "Castle looking structure." I wasn't sure how else to describe it...
I tried attaching a Bing image, but I'm having no luck...

Why did they have to shut down the opposite 2 lanes for a simple upright of a truck? Seems unprofessional to me and a little bit of an outdated technique. Glenns should get a bigger truck. Like the red one on the site here. Nice excavator

Here are the "specifics" Chief. The majority of places have a signup. The majority of places are community-minded, keeping the safety of the residents of their original jurisdiction at heart at all times. That said, the majority of places make sure that their district is covered before going to an extra-jurisdictional affair. So, just because the "jolly vollies" go to attend a parade or a wetdown or whatever, does not necessarily mean that they are shirking their responsibilities.

Most places have a signup and it's not like the whole department goes to the parade and leaves their respective district unprotected. What's your beef with Volunteers, anyway?

OK it looks like story time.
Once upon a time there was a very large strip shopping center whose parking lot straddled two jurisdictions. Quite a few people beat a few arrests because the "jurisdiction that they were arrested in" was wrong. The PD's agreed to paint the city line across the parking lot (3 or 4 city blocks long) so it would very clear where the arrest was made.
Then, one day, an engine Co. from one of the jurisdictions was spotted by a politico, shopping at a market 300 ft out ot their city. (That particular Eng. Co. has no supermarkets in its company area) The poop hit the air circulator,(despite all the logic explained by the guilty Eng. Co.) and City A's FD was banned from shopping out of town for any reason.
Along comes the Eng. Co. from city B. The supermarket lies in city B.
Always willing to help a brother, the City B engine agrees to meet the City A engine at 10:00am every morning at the shopping center, both on the proper side of the city line. The shopping list was passed over the city line, along with the money and you know the rest.
It didn't last too long. Logic prevailled, and logic will probably prevail in Boston, too.
Footnote: I kinda liked the painted line, myself. You don't have to fill out the full NFIRS if your guys can push the car fire over the line before WP (oops... I meant to say City A) gets there.

In my opinion a "simple" fire would be a room and contents involved in fire, in an unoccupied, single story, type 3 or 5, private dwelling, with no extension, and no water supply issues.
Before I retired, to my knowledge my job never as a practice put a FAST company, particularly a mutual-aid FAST to work, unless as required for a firefighter in distress. It should be illegal (even though it is a violation of the Standard, it doesn't have the teeth it should) to put a FAST company to work for other than FAST purposes with no other company on scene to IMMEDIATELY take it's place. If a firefighter is killed or injured because no FAST is available, the lawyers are going to feast on the IC, and the department. Just my opinion.

Trying to justify no one showing up in time by saying there was no one to show up in time is very disturbing. I don't blame the guys who responded because they are the ones who actually went. And I'm sure its probably those same guys, through whose hard work and time spent make it seem like the department is in good shape. But it doesn't matter what day of the week, what time of day, what holiday during the year, if you can't get the adequately trained bodies there, you either need to work on getting that established or you are negligent as far as I am concerned. If you need more volunteers, get them. If you can't, hire firefighters. Either way, regardless of where it is, it may be my or your family and friends in that house/building/extrication, and NO ONE should tolerate excuses. You have to get the job done, and this whole excuse business is precisely why volunteers have the reputation we do. Either man up and admit to the problem and try to fix it, or get out of the way.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

Seth- Your site, your rules. However, there may be a point coming in the not too distant future when the line is crossed to the point of ridiculousness. I happened to be at the structure fire this past weekend in Lagrange (Dutchess County). From my vantage point, I saw no fewer than 5 people walking around with cameras and various FD related articles of clothing on. These ranged from one with a zoom lens camera who stood up on the road (long driveway to the structure), to several guys who slogged through the snow and the woods to get closer shots. One guy even had his 10 year old (+/-) son with him. Both had cameras strapped around their neck. There is a value and a benefit to fire photography, I won't argue with that, but the scene that I witnessed yesterday was disturbing. Here's someone standing in the street with their house a total loss, and guys are all over the place making a photographic record of their painful experience. Seemed a little bit much.
This incident was not on a well-travelled street, it was a back country road. There was a tanker relay going on and the area surrounding the scene was already crowded with vehicles, personnel, etc. Did we really need four or five more people milling around in the way of the tanker shuttle, or parking their cars, even if down the street, making a tight fit for a tanker even more so? C'mon guys. If it's in your neighborhood, that's one thing, but if it's four districts away, do everyone a favor and stay out of the way. My two cents.