Capejake72

well once you get off the coast about 200 miles all bets of a "fast rescue" are gone. Going to sea makes things that are normally ok or simple to deal with at times spin into something very catastrophic. take a broken finger. not properly set, no x-ray and about a week until you can put in or get someone out there to get the person off. in that time they can through a clot and have a stroke depending on there age. I have sailed with many people over the age of 50, some very good sailors.
I have been on the receiving end where they couldn't send a medivac out to pick up a patient who was scalped because she lost her footing on deck. we were in 25 foot seas with a 40kts sustained wind (about 50mph) gust were higher. we treated the best we could, and waited 32hrs for the weather to break so we could put into port.
Im not knocking the fire service, yes its dangerous, and there are more dangerous jobs then fishing or working deep sea. The oil industry has a high injury rate too. Anywhere you mix humans and heavy equipment and then add some bad weather you will have injuries and fatalities. I wonder if OSHA publishes which industry or profession has the highest injury rates.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

Tankers vs. relay, which is better? Depends on many factors.
What are your water sources (hydrants, ponds, tanks, etc.)?
What is the quality of those sources?
What are the distances?
How much water is needed upon arrival and in the 1st phase (as a relay or shuttle is established)?
ISO has a great test and depts. that have succeeded at it are rewarded with a drop in rating from a 9 down to a 4 or 5. That's a huge savings (30% * every property). The ISO test can be performed using either methods or both methods (particularly one for one section of a community and the other for another (based on water sources).
The ISO test really mirrors what fire attack in non-hydrant areas need to be.
Within 5 minutes of arrival, stretch a 200' attack line and flow a minimum of 250 gpm without interruption or loss of water. The clock starts when the attack apparatus is 200' from the water (if forward lay is used) and 200' from the fire (if a reverse lay is used). Between the 5 and the 10 minute mark the attack needs to be increased to a level that is need (based on the fire flow requirement for the buildings in the community). This increase only counts in 250gpm increments (500, 750, 1,000 gpm etc.). At the 10 minute mark the flow is documented and must be maintained for 2 hours.
So what does this mean in this debate?
If you use the hose relay method: The attack engine pulls up at the fire, stretches an attack line and using tank water (usually 1,000 gal) starts its attack. That's less than a 4 minute attack (as you can't get 100% of the tank out the nozzle). In those 3+ minutes the 2nd due and other apparatus must find a water source, hook up & or establish a draft. stretch all of the hose from the source to the attack and establish a flow to maintain the initial attack. Within a few more minutes increase the flow to allow additional attack & exposure lines to be brought into play. Additional time can be gained by using tankers to supplement until the relay is established.
Generally this method works best when their are many water sources that are easy to access and relatively close to all properties. It is generally better at mid to long term supply and particularly poor for initial attack. Room & content fires with 2 engines (1,000 gal each) & a 3,000 gal tanker allows a very substantial initial attack and in general if you can not put out a room & content fire with 5,000 gal. it is unlikely that either a relay or shuttle will be successful.
If you use the tanker shuttle method: The attack engine pulls up at the fire, stretches an attack line and using tank water (usually 1,000 gal) starts its attack. That's less than a 4 minute attack (as you can't get 100% of the tank out the nozzle). In those 3+ minutes the 2nd due and tankers must establish a drop location. The 1st tanker can either drop its load and go for more or off pump its water as the drop location is established. During this time additional tankers need to be in route and a fill station(s) needs to be established.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

Whatever happened to being discreet? OK, have your cooler of beers for after, although I would much rather go to whatever event is being held where you can be with everyone else and not be isolationist and then complain about the lack of brotherhood. However carrying a case of beer past the church is downright obscene. Here is a radical idea, how about remembering that you are attending a funeral and actually attend it. Even if the church if full they usually have speakers set up. If you went to a non fire service funeral, would it be acceptable to stand there while the family entered, then pop off to the pub or the parking lot, then be there when the family leaves?
I can remember attending the national memorial service in Maryland and getting there to find one member did not bring a tie, because they didn't like to wear them normally so thought it would be OK to not wear one when serving as part of a color guard. Needless to say a quick trip to the store across the street and that member had a tie. I used to think that we had lost an understanding of traditions in the fire service, but i don't think that is it. New kids may not realize that pike poles were once a fishing tool, but I fail to see how you can not realize that a funeral, especially a LODD funeral is a place for reverence.
Oh and as for the kid sitting on the memorial, after his injuries healed, I would personally like to see him thrown out of the department. I am not sure there is much we can do to fix that kind of stupidity, treating any monument like that is something that has to be learned at a young age.

I'm not sure that's the right answer, in fact I'm sure it isn't. Too often we make blanket policies to address the stupidity of a small sample. If out of town Brother's truly want to pay their respects, the sea of uniformed firefighters can be quite moving. I can tell you the day (in 2000) we marched through Worcester it was a moment I'll never forget, it still send shivers up my spine to remember how the second largest city in New England could be reduced to only the sound of footsteps as Brothers from across this country and further marched to the Centrum. Letting a few clowns disassemble something that's larger than any individual, any one FD or even a country would be a damn shame.
It needs to be said to all by their own bosses that if you act inappropriately while in uniform (regardless of who paid for it) then you will be held accountable for "duties unbecoming of a member". can we not instill a minimum level of respect for other Brother's? This is the epitome of Brotherhood just being a slogan that goes along with a window decal or uniform. It is up to our own members to ensure the new guys coming on understand the true meaning of respect and Brotherhood and up to the bosses to ensure their members represent them in a manner that makes the department proud.

I know we have been down this road before and it just would not sit right if we don't bring it up again. When I respond to a call and I am advised by 60 Control to stage away till PD arrives I do just that. I can tell you that for every shooting, stabbing and assault call I respond to I ask if PD in en route. I also advise that we will stage away until clear to enter the scene. Do I want to help someone in distress? Yes I do. Do I want to be part of the action? Yes I do. Do I want to injure or kill one of my Brothers under my supervision and not return them home the same way they came to work. NO FRIGGIN WAY!!! Do we need to get on the radio to advise PD to stage away till our arrival? 2 Members of Public Safety are in critical condition for the simple fact that :
#1 They are not dressed in proper fire gear
#2 They are not wearing SCBA
#3 They most likely do not have elevator keys and or don't know how to control an elevator in a fire situation
#4 They are acting out of the scope of their job description
Does wearing a uniform transform us into something we are not? We tell civilians to vacate and do not return for valuables or anything else for that matter. When does the risk vs reward decision come into play? Do we really need to do another agency's job?
For everyone who gets his/her panties in a bunch over this post get over it! Hold a picture tight of your loved ones everyday and ask yourself one thing. Is this the smartest thing I am about to do?
I will say a prayer for the 2 NYPD members and I hope for a speedy and healthy recovery

Sadly much of the fire service etiquette seems to be slowly fading away. And those of us who have been around awhile are to blame. If we look the other way when members act disrespectfully or distastefully then the fault lies with us, the "older guys" who should know better. I more often than not find myself at odds with both the younger members and the admin of my FD, as I always speak up and see to it that the nonsense stops when members Facebook or Twitter or act disrespectfully at solemn or formal occasions. When such situations arise I hear the standard lament, "it's not 1980 anymore, it's a different time, you can't expect guys to act like they did years ago, wah wah wah, blah blah blah. I'm so f><king tired of that lame ass BS excuse. As I see it here's the deal, there is a right way and there is a wrong way to conduct yourself when in uniform and that goes doubly so for when we're present at funerals or other significant events. I think many will agree, but I also think that beyond agreeing we have to act when we see the wrong way happening...if we don't who will. I joined my first FD at 16 and believe me, my friends and I were hellions in the extreme. The older members made it clear what was and what was not acceptable....just as it had been made clear to them before us...and they made sure we learned exactly what that meant. I truly am thankful I had men like that around to show me the way...and sometimes do more than just show...because I came out a better person and a far better fireman for it. No matter how many volumes of the latest new age, progressive, politically correct management theory drivel is shoved down my throat I KNOW that what I learned and how I learned it is what works best and is the right thing. Society might be crumbling all around us and there may not be a helluva lot we can do about it outside our world, but in our world we still have control...so when guys need straightening out it's up to us to do just that. 10, 15, 20 years from now those same guys will be thankful we did

Sadly, it appears another new "trend" is coming out of our technology boom. It appears that a funeral is now becoming a "look at me event". Reportedly, many uniformed firefighters were taking cellphone pics throughout the processional and such. Many don't seem to understand that taking pictures for their Facebook page makes a solemn day of remembrance appear to be about the wrong people. What could and should be a large silent presence to honor the fallen and show the family, FD and community that we are one in brotherhood appears to be just another excuse to get out of town a drink and show off their hero costumes. Disgraceful. Too bad only those of us on the inside readily see the difference between those in uniform and those in hero costumes.

A very interesting article about the heroes of this winter....

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/27/driven-to-work-snowplow-driver/?a_dgi=aolshare_facebook

There are devices available to keep the ambulance running. We have a simple button on the dashboard. Push the button, turn the key to the off position and pull out the key. The rig stays running. Get back in the rig, insert the key and off you go. Anyone who jumps in and steps on the brake to take the truck out of park causes the engine to shutoff.

Great truck. It is a MK 48 primer mover with a MK 15 wrecker body on it.. The USMC used them. It articulates in the middle, and you can put a few different versions of body's (trailers actually) on it. Painting over the CARC paint is a PITA. The best way to do it is sand blast, prime and paint it, but that is a HUGE undertaking with a truck this size, even when you separate the front from the rear. And if you do, don't drive more than 2MPH or else it will tip.

Stiloskis Automotive Military Surplus Oshkosh Wrecker

The concept of mixing steel, masonry, and wood to make a structure is hardly new. The H types of the Bronx that probably started to be built about 100 years ago were able to surpass the size of their predecessors the old law tenements by using steel I beams both horizontally and vertically. The buildings consist of a masonry exterior, with steel I beams horizontally and vertically spaced supporting wood floor and roof joists. They are ordinary construction.
The difference is the new buildings is today's wood. Notice I didn't just single out lightweight components because today's dimensional lumber has been shown to fail much earlier than the traditional lumber of the past.
Dunn and Branigan implored us to realize the difference between a structure and a contents fire and calling all jobs a structure fire was incorrect. Once the fire is attacking the structural components we're on borrowed time. The operational window with today's lumber even dimensional is nil.
The only way we should tolerate those materials today is if they are protected behind fire rated drywall and the structure is protected with automatic sprinklers.
Seth's pictures illustrate a good and inexpensive drill. Take pictures of buildings under construction in your area and have a good discussion on how we will operate when it catches on fire. Many of today's recruits don't have the slightest idea what a building looks like underneath the sheathing and sheet rock.

I almost feel that changing Type V construction to read "legacy wood" and adding a Type 6 for "light weight wood truss" would benefit classification, and building identity.

I must agree with Mr. Polet on one point. I, too dislike the term "First Responder." I prefer to be called a Firefighter. Many people draw their picture of our job just like Mr. Polet. To them, we spend our days sitting around the kitchen table playing cards or checkers and expecting a big pension for doing so. As a college professor, he should know that you can't just make a statement like that without research to see if it's true. I suggest he, using the Scientific Method, do a survey of firehouses nationally to see how many fire stations even have a checkerboard or a deck of cards in their quarters.
He is also correct when he says that people should learn to save themselves and their families without the aid of firefighters. Every family should have an escape plan to safely get out of their home without the aid of firefighters. It should also have two ways out and a meeting place outside. The man is a genius! Why didn't we think of that?
He also says we should be preventing fires or trying to end destructive fires altogether. Right again, Mr. Polet, we should be pushing for laws that require automatic sprinklers, even in one family homes and college dorms. Those are two places where the fire death rate is high.
As for the "America's heroes" image? I've only made three rescues in my 34 years on the job. That's not very productive of me, so I never thought of myself as a hero. I am sure the average college professor is more worthy of the title because in the same 34 years he will have passed his "knowledge" on to hundreds of young men and women.
I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Just call me "Firefighter," I'll be happy with that because I can meet up with any Firefighter in the World and I'll know what he does for a living. Mr. Polet can have the title "First Responder" if he likes, but he'll have to start showing up at emergencies in under 5 minutes to keep the title because that's when we get there, rain or shine, day or night, Christmas included. And even if we don't like you, we'll get on our bellies, go into the fire, and pull your sorry ass out.

Obviously, this guy, along with everyone else in the US, has a right to their own opinion. And I will agree with his original thesis statement, which is that fire men, and emergency services in general shouldn't be regarded as heroes. I could be wrong, but all most everyone I know would say "I'm not a hero". After the thesis statement though, it quickly becomes an opinion piece, either that or he doesn't understand the evidence he's looking at. Yes, the Holland FD only has working fires at 3.8 percent of their calls, but he claims the 3.8 percent actually represents suspected fire too (that total is actually 20.7 percent). He then goes on to the FDNY. Yes they've received a lot more money in terms of funding, but alot of that has gone towards terrorism preparedness and future natural disasters, such as another hurricane sandy. Also, does he realize that the FDNY dropped a firefighter off every engine company? In my opinion, this professor is one of those people who think that if they're not fighting fires, firefighters are sitting around eating lunch and playing checkers, which as we all know is untrue. Also, it may seem that emergency services get paid alot, even though we aren't actively working at emergencies all that much, but as a professor of mine put it "emergency services don't get paid for what they do do, they get paid for what they may have to do."

A "Plow trailer", in theory, cuts down the number of trucks needed to clear a multiple lane highway. They are catching on quickly, as it reduces the need for more trucks. Check out the video.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6vhzVT3Zc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh6vhzVT3Zc

When I first started in the field, I carried all that crap on me but all it really did was give me a back ache. As I got older and wiser, I trimmed it to a pair of shears, flashlight and stethescope. Do you really need to carry a BP cuff on your person? Don't you bring a bag with you when you contact a patient?
Keep it light, keep it functional. If you don't use it on every call, you can probably leave it on the ambulance until you do.

Never been a big E-One fan, but my attitude has changed somewhat due to the rig we use at work. We can't kill that bast#rd..no matter how hard we try . As for this Truck, well it's not a bad looking rig and it is a true Truck (no pump just as it should be) so those are benefits. Without actually working with one I'd say it would probably be a serviceable ladder for the money for alot of departments that need a truck but don't have alot of fire duty. Ultimately though it comes down to the needs vs wants and give and take. If you're in the market for a truck you should ask a few questions: what do you need it for? how much do you have to spend? and do you have the people to staff it? As for the rig itself, there's always trade offs when it comes to apparatus. In the minus column, it's a light duty aerial so there will be limitations with the aerial, but it's still useful for roof crews, as a water tower and for plucking a few victims. On the plus side, smaller size means accessibility and that's a pretty important one. What use is that shiny new dual axle 100ft aerial with a 1000lb tip load ladder/ tower/ quint /rescue /engine if you can't get into a scene. Bigger isn't always better and this rig would probably fill the Aerial void quite nicely for those who need it filled.

I'm not really looking to have a discussion but if one insues, so be it. I have noticed in a few threads recently that some people aren't able to take criticism or jest very well anymore. I would like to take this opportunity to bring back an acronym that was used by many on this site. Q.T.I.P. Quit taking it personal. Guess what kids, this is the emergency service. You are posting on a forum that is dedicated to us. If you say something out of line or just plain stupid, you will get your various parts busted. That's just how it works. Thanks for your time guys and gals. As always, stay safe.
Wisker
P.s. If you are going to be a keyboard tough guy, sign your name.

I have been Captain of our squad for over 17 years and we have the same rules in our by-laws. However we also realize the importance of getting a rig to the scene for transport of a patient, therefore we have a contingency plan written into those by-laws for drivers under the age of 21. Any member who is a potential driver is provided with EVOC as well as in-house training on our rigs, we call them conditional drivers. If a qualified driver is not available to get the rig to the scene then a conditional driver drives it to the scene. Upon reaching the scene, if there is a qualified driver available who is not needed in the patient compartment, then that driver will take responsibiity for the transport. If one is not available then the conditional driver follows through with the transport duties.It works out quite well and we have never had a reportable incident.
This isn't rocket science people it is about common sense and community service. If I had been in the same situation as Stephen I would have done the same thing. It would have been a different situation if this had been one of those much too frequent "taxi rides", but it wasn't. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for disregarding rules and regulations, however I do believe that there was a better option than suspension.in this case. The man had exhausted his search for mutual aid. The people who voted for the suspension should stop, take a deep breath, and ask themselves what they would have considered prudent if they were the parent of this four year old. This is what destroys volunteerism in our communities. Kudos to the four who voted for such a severe penalty you did a great service to your community. Oh, and I also support torture as a means to gather information....yeah right!!!!!!!!!! Just in case no one gets it...this is sarcasm my friends. Enough said.

People, both civilians & us in the Emergency response community, get very emotional where sick or injured children are concerned. If this young man was "a loose cannon" as someone sugested and needed to be reeled in, this was not the instance to do it. True, rules are rules but you also need to, sometimes, pick your battles. This could have & should have been handled better. No matter how you look at it .. it hurt 'em & to a larger extent all others in the volunteer community.
In reading this I was wondering if the young man in question would have been of the same mind if the call was for the elderly old lady who fell and couldn't get up (Fx hip) or the old man with belly pain (GI bleed or maybe just constipated) they also deserve the same level of concern on our part and unfortunately seldom get it.

It has nothing to do with the rules, its about control of the many (mostly newer, younger members) by the few (mostly long standing, older members). This is the main reason so many VACs have staffing/membership issues. Instead of qualifing people and clearing them based on ability (this guy is a NYS EMT, already works for a busy commercial service, p/t PD. VFD) they force him out. I just wonder where the Capt and other Brd members who voted against this young man were when this call was going down? 4 page outs, I mean really! And then the so called Captain states that "this is the type of story that the public" (which he supposedly serves) "doesn't need to be told" "There's no value in this story other than shock value" (at least he got this point right) "and gossip" He also states It's about "going through the proper training" "Experience driving other ambulances doesn't necessarily matter" I'd like to know what driver training they offer in order to "properly prepare" their members. This is a guy who has been around since he was 15, restarted the youth squad of his corps, which in well run places brings in a supply of young, already well groomed members. Now he's done and probably for good, along with how many of the Jr. members who looked up to him as a role model.

I got qualified on our ambulances at 18 "by fire." A call came in for an elderly male with difficulty breathing. We had an EMT, just no driver, so I drove. At the time I was driving a tow truck, and the patient was the father/Grandfather of members in our FD.
Similarly, I joined another VAC a couple years later. There, they refused to let me drive despite the fact I was a qualified driver on our ambulances, my Engine, Tanker, Rescue and Ladder Truck. The reason; "We have enough drivers." I was qualified when we had an MCI and nobody showed up for the third Ambulance.
If you can be an EMT at 18 and work for a commercial service where you drive, then there is absolutely no reason why a VAC shouldn't allow you to drive too.