Could this be part of the problem

[turk182 37]

At a recent Fire Department Carnival in semi rural CT. There were several members of the department who were working wearing t-shirts that the back said PAID GUYS with a red circle and a hash mark thru it( I have a photo that I am trying to post that hopefully will be up here soon). After I took a picture of a kid wearing the shirt who was directing traffic I asked him what the meaning of the shirt was. He said it was because they are volunteers I asked what that had to do with wearing a shirt like that He said " I don't know". I also asked him why not make shirts that said they were a volunteer department the answer again " I don't know". To the best of my knowledge there are no plans to change this department to career so it is not like they are protecting themselves. To me this is a example of why problems exist between the career and volunteer. To me there is know reason for a shirt like that. Put XYZ Volunteer Fire Department on the back of the shirt if you want people to know it is a volunteer department.

[attachmentid=1145]

It does not make sense to me in so many ways to wear this shirt. They are not be threatened by a career department why throw out insults.

[DOC22 1]

At a recent Fire Department Carnival in semi rural CT. There were several members of the department who were working wearing  t-shirts that the back said PAID GUYS with a red circle and a hash mark thru it( I have a photo that I am trying to post that hopefully will be up here soon).  After I took a picture of a kid wearing the shirt who was directing traffic I asked him what the meaning of the shirt was.  He said it was because they are volunteers  I asked  what that had to do with wearing a shirt like that  He said " I don't know".  I also asked him why not make shirts that said they were a volunteer department the answer again " I don't know".  To the best of my knowledge there are no plans to change this department to career so it is not like they are protecting themselves.  To me this is a example of why problems exist between the career and volunteer.  To me there is know reason for a shirt like that.  Put XYZ Volunteer Fire Department on the back of the shirt if you want people to know it is a volunteer department. 

It does not make sense to me in so many ways to wear this shirt.  They are not be threatened by a career department why throw out insults.

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Well said, turk182, You have an excellent point! There is NO reason for that.

[AFS1970 504]

Speaking as a pretty rabid pro volunteer, I have to agree that the shirt was at best in bad taste and at worst insulting to all firefighters both career and volunteer. I have never liked shirts that have some sort of issue related message because it brings opinions out in the public that will ultimately hurt the publics opinion of us all.

One of my training officers when I first started (who is now a career firefighter) once told me, that Mrs. Jones who's house is on fire and is holding her baby out the window doesn't care one bit if you are getting a paycheck or not, she just wants you to save her baby, so you better be ready to go to work and do what needs to be done.

That shirt says to me that those guys may be more about fighting something other than fire.

[x152 179]

Turk:

Thanks for sharing the picture with all of us. The "approved" Department attire (camo shorts/ shirt with sleeves cut-off) is an excellent visual example of what kind of state this department must be in.

I am sure the residents of this semi-rural CT town must be proud to see their fire department members dressed at a town function in this manner.

One could only imagine what type of dysfunctional Department would openly prejudice more than 300,000 fire fighters (in particular the female ones) with a slogan demeaning "paid guys".

Would it be possible to share the name of the community where this occured? I would be very interested in attending their next community event.

Edited August 20, 2006 by x152

[Firefighter57 0]

One of my training officers when I first started (who is now a career firefighter) once told me, that Mrs. Jones who's house is on fire and is holding her baby out the window doesn't care one bit if you are getting a paycheck or not, she just wants you to save her baby, so you better be ready to go to work and do what needs to be done.

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i think it was chief Paul Gerardi who said somthing like that on the first day of our firefighter 1 class...it was somthing like "fire doesnt give a S*** if you are paid or volunteer, either way, it wants to kill you"

as to the shirt, maybe it wasnt a department wide thing, maybe it was just a click of inmature guys who thought they were making a cool Tshirt. what ever the reason though, yeah, totaly uncalled for.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Firefighter57

[BFD1054 1,552]

Hey Turk...thanks for sharing this photo and info with us. By the way, do you know where i can purchase one of those shirts ? Definately kidding around about that.

As stated, this is something totally uncalled for and absolutely ridiculous. It looks like the member in the photo is a young guy, so that plays a big part in it i feel. The fact that his replies were "i don't know" when asked about the shirt says alot as well. Hes probably a young, somewhat new member who unfortunately fell into the wrong click at the firehouse. Hopfully he is not resentful to career firefighters, as nobody should be, but instead is just doing what some other morons are doing.

The fact that he is a some sort of town function, representing the fire department kills me as well. As stated by another member, the camo shorts, backwards hat and the anti-career sleeveless t-shirt makes him look like a real a$$. Further more, i would hope that a senior member with a brain took this kid aside and had a serious conversation with him.

Whenever i am involved in something where i am in the publics eye & representing the fire department, i try and look as professional as possible. I feel that your appearance goes along way in the publics perception of you and your department.

Hopfully, this situation was corrected and maybe, just maybe, someone was able to get to this kid and explain what was so wrong about his shirt. I hope that it was explained to him why this stuff shouldn't go on and that there shouldn't be any beef between volunteer and career firefighters.

[ex-commish 490]

This only promotes animosity. Very tacky and distasteful.

[X615 0]

i grew up a vollie in a combination system & have more friends who are career than vollie and i despise crap like this. it benefits nobody any only rabblerouses those just looking for an excuse to start some ^#%. i would have enjoyed being in the same dept. as this kid & making him my "special project". how many blue light proof of purchase box tops have to be redeemed for this shirt? rather that take an uneducated stand on something he doesn't have the first clue about nor understand the possible repercussions maybe he should concern himself with smaller ideas like wondering where the rest of his pants are & why his cap is backwards or why raspberry popsicles are blue. "i don't know" sounds like another brain trust. in his little world he's obviously not burdened by deep thought.

[Guest]

i would have enjoyed being in the same dept. as this kid & making him my "special project". how many blue light proof of purchase box tops have to be redeemed for this shirt?

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"Attention K-Mart shoppers...."

[Guest alsfirefighter]

There are and always will be bad eggs on both side of the fence. Fact is, there is no reason for anyone not to try to get along and work together to make the system better, more efficient and safer for the citizens they serve. That shirt above, is a management issue. Which apparantly there is none. Make note that I didn't say a "leadership" issue, because there is a difference between managment and leadership. There are very few and I cannot recall any combo departments where they just "took over." That is a utterly ridiculous concept. Through lack of volunteer retention...yes out of necessity. But if people got over themselves, and either their pride (which stops progress), jealousy or ignorance, there could be some top notch FD's in this county that are combo.

On a side note, as a career firefigher, that shirt is ignorant. I could only imagine if a career member of that department had a similiar shirt with volunteer in that slash and what would happen. If that is a combo department, then they are a Fire Department. Having a combo department and making t-shirts that saids XYZ Volunteer Fire Department also causes anymosity.

[Firemn2742A 14]

Firefighter57 said

i think it was chief Paul Garardi who said somthing like that on the first day of our firefighter 1 class...it was somthing like "fire doesnt give a S*** if you are paid or volunteer, either way, it wants to kill you"

Paul Gerardi is correct !

Training helps the public and the firefighters on the scene.

Work together in Westchester to get the job done.

good post TURK182

Edited August 21, 2006 by Firemn2742A

[DES630 10]

What is sad is that clown is probably taking every possible FF test there is......

[res6cue 67]

I wouldn't put too much stock in it, otherwise you'll just give these dumb kids more exposure and attention, which is probably what they want. Mission accomplished, they got a photo of their pathetic shirt on our board and we're wasting our energy discussing it. Anyone who thinks that these ignorant bastards represent the volunteer fire service needs to get their head checked. In my experience, it's a VERY small percentage of guys that start or promote the volly vs career bullsh!t, and it goes both ways 50/50.

[gpdexplorer 46]

I must say that being a young member to a vol dept, I give a lot of credit to "paid guys." Also being a vol, I cant stand when fellow members say dont tell the paid guys you're a volunteer, they hate volunteers. That, as previously stated, can only be applied to the rare few, as it is a lot of paid guys are vollies where they live. I also want to point out 2 recent volunteer-paid interactions: Yonkers FD responding to Mt. Pleasant and Elmsford FD relocating for Fairview FD. This is how things should always be. Just because they're paid and we're volunteers doesn't mean we do things differently.

[RichC 0]

Nothing wrong with being pro-volly or pro-career whatever the case may be. Animosity develops when you cross over the line to become anti-the other. I'll agree with Turk, as everyone else here has, that shirt is way over that line.

[Guest]

I wouldn't put too much stock in it, otherwise you'll just give these dumb kids more exposure and attention, which is probably what they want. Mission accomplished, they got a photo of their pathetic shirt on our board and we're wasting our energy discussing it. Anyone who thinks that these ignorant bastards represent the volunteer fire service needs to get their head checked. In my experience, it's a VERY small percentage of guys that start or promote the volly vs career bullsh!t, and it goes both ways 50/50.

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I don't mind taking the time to expose and discuss this stuff. It rubs people the wrong way, and indeed sets a bad example for the public. Maybe the more we talk about these things in this forum...the less of this junk we'll see. Sure, there'll always be some level of competitiveness: career/volly; FD/PD; trained first responders/citizen volunteers. With any luck, talking about this "in-house" will cut down on the public expressions like this guy and his shirt.

I sure hope he paid a lot for that shirt...he's paying here!

[210 91]

I don't mind taking the time to expose and discuss this stuff.  It rubs people the wrong way, and indeed sets a bad example for the public.  Maybe the more we talk about these things in this forum...the less of this junk we'll see.  Sure, there'll always be some level of competitiveness: career/volly; FD/PD; trained first responders/citizen volunteers. With any luck, talking about this "in-house" will cut down on the public expressions like this guy and his shirt.

I sure hope he paid a lot for that shirt...he's paying here!

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No doubt

[TimesUp 148]

I wonder how many tests this guy has taken, or what list he might be on.

[Guest]

I wonder where this attitude develops, especially in a community so rural like that? Is this town maybe thinking about going paid?

Otherwise as mentioned here, it's got to be jealousy. If someone offered this kid a job as a "Paid Guy" I would bet he would take it. Someone wonders why some of these kids trash and try to keep out a profession they want to be in.....why try to convince the public too take a (possible future) job away from yourself????

[firecapt32 282]

Mabey he should have listed his training record on that shirt and someone might give a darn.

the statement that fire is out to kill us is very true and fire dosent know the difference between paid and vol. but training sure plays a big part in everything. The better trained the firefighter is, the better prepared he will be for the dangers of the job. The better trained the firefighter is, the better protected the citizens of our communities will be.

let no firefighter say his traing let him down.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I wonder if the person who designed the shirts did it vendictively or though that having paid guys with the circle and slash was supposed to mean they were 100% volunteer and had no paid personnel.

But by looking at the shirt..... HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FRIKIN' KNOW!!!

Another stupid thing that may or may not have had a little innocent meaning and never thought through! This is why som animosity is created, even amongs carrer and vols internally. STUPID STUPID STUPID

Hmm Semi Rural CT, Must a be Fairfield or New Haven County Department. I have my guesses and I can't agree more of bad taste. Hopefully I won't see those shirts at the convention in the next few weeks.

[Guest]

While this shirt may not be appropriate, there sure are a lot of career guys in combo departments that would like to wear anti-vollie shirts...unfortunately the problems between paid and volunteer firemen doesn't stem from a shirt, it stems from attitudes, attitudes that seem to be more prevalent in the career community...

[turk182 37]

While this shirt may not be appropriate, there sure are a lot of career guys in combo departments that would like to wear anti-vollie shirts...unfortunately the problems between paid and volunteer firemen doesn't stem from a shirt, it stems from attitudes, attitudes that seem to be more prevalent in the career community...

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To single out Career firefighters in combo department as being anti volunteer does not seem appropriate. I will go alone with there being more Career Volunteer problems in combo departments. My feeling is that in a combo dept. both sides feel they have somthing to protect. The volunteers feels they most preserve the whole volunteer way and the career guys get in the way because all they want is to take over, and turn the dept. into a career dept. On the other side the career guys tend to think they are the bastard child and they most fight to protect themselves at all cost. There is obvisously much more to the issue and it is in no way a simple explaination to why the problems exist. I am listing below a list of gripes that some career firefighters might have against volunteers since this is the side I am involved in currently(although I do have volunteer experience). I do not mean any of the following comments to fact or indisputable they are just gripes true or untrue.

Training level (volunteers are not trained to the same level)

Accountiblity ( volunteers are not accountable for their actions)

Members of Career Dept. volunteering in combo dept.( they are taking a job away from someone

else, and are disrepecting their brothers)

Career Firefighters must take orders from officers with less training

I am sure other people could list more and I could too if I wanted to spend the time thinking about it. The list seem to be the most prevalent gripes. I am not trying to start a war, I am just trying to have a truthfull discussion. I would be interested in what volunteers from combination departments have to say.

[Guest]

To single out Career firefighters in combo department as being anti volunteer does not seem appropriate.  I will go alone with there being more  Career  Volunteer problems  in combo departments.  My feeling is that in a combo dept.  both sides feel they have somthing to protect.  The volunteers feels they most preserve the whole volunteer way and the career guys get in the way because all they want is to take over, and turn the dept. into a career dept.  On the other side the career guys tend to think they are the bastard child and they most fight to protect themselves at all cost. There is obvisously much more to the issue and it is in no way a simple explaination to why the problems exist.  I am listing below a list of gripes that some career firefighters might have against volunteers since this is  the side I am involved in currently(although I do have volunteer experience).  I do not mean any of the following comments to fact or indisputable they are just gripes true or untrue.

Training level (volunteers are not trained to the same level)

Accountiblity ( volunteers are not accountable for their actions)

Members of Career Dept. volunteering in combo dept.( they are taking a job away from someone               

                        else,  and are disrepecting their brothers)

Career Firefighters must take orders from officers with less training

I am sure other people could list more and I could too if I wanted to spend the time thinking about it.  The list seem to be the most prevalent  gripes.  I am not trying to start a war, I am just trying to have a truthfull discussion.  I would be interested in what volunteers from combination departments have to say.

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I didn't mean to single out career members of combo departments, Turk, since this "war" exists in every aspect of the fire service. That being said I stand by my statement that it is more prevalent in combo departments, obviously. In my volunteer experience, which you and I have in common, I agree with your points about training and accountability among some members, as we have discussed before. But surely you should agree that there are training issues on both sides of the coin. Also, the career members have this attitude that the volunteers are taking money or work away from them. Not only is this untrue, its not even realistic. No member is going to be fired if the volunteer base increases. Furthermore, if training standards are really a gripe then why is there so much resistance against training with your volunteer brothers? Finally your last statement about career members volunteering...like any other volunteers, these members aren't taking any "jobs" away from anyone else. And disrespecting their "brothers"? Not only do i not understand the disrespect, how come only career members are their "brothers"? Like has been said before on this forum, we're brothers for fighting fire together, not cashing checks together; it doesn't matter if you're paid or not. Combo departments exist in communities that have embraced the fact that they realistically cannot man a department the way they should. You will get paid regardless of whether there are loads of volunteers or not, and quite frankly if you took the job at a department that was combination, you knew what you were getting into.

Without getting anymore into specifics I would say I agree that your first two points have credence...but that goes for volunteer or paid...just going to a career academy doesn't mean your training has ended. And lastly everyone should be held accountable for their actions...like life, the fire service is a two way street. Sorry to rant!

[RichC 0]

Turk:

This is a good thread you started and a well thought out last post. The list of gripes as you refer to them, I have to ask, are they things that were hidden from you when you took the job? (Keep in mind I don't mean you in particular)

I understand it is quite competitive to get these jobs, yet you successfully tested and competed and were awarded the job despite the prior existence of these gripes. You did enter knowingly into a trade/profession where approx. 2/3 of the participants are volunteer. Were the vol. ff's suppose to vanish when you stopped volunteering and were awarded the career job? There was also and still exists, the option to apply, test and compete for a job in a fully career department.

I am with you, not looking to start a war either, but since you asked in the interest of truthful discussion, I'm relating some thoughts of fellow volunteers like myself in combination departments.

[FirNaTine 370]

I've always liked the Career guys who work in Combo depts. that are antivolunteer, but will volunteer in their own communities. One guy actually told me he does it because he gets better training than in the Dept. where he gets paid. Let's not foget all the Career guys who perform electrical, plumbing, and carpentry services on the side, who are not in these Unions and paying dues, but aren't ashamed to take these jobs away from those Union men that do! In my 23yrs. within the fire service, I have to honestly say, that I haven't seen too many so called true Union men. Many may think they are but in reality, they're nothing but friggin hypocrites. Once again, all decissions are made around the almighty do$$ar. Whether it's Volunteering in their own community to keep their taxes down and/or be eligible for a volunteer pension in the future, or working a Union related side job to supplement their Career FFs. income, but not actually be a union dues paying member within that trade or trades. Who are the real SCABS now?

[turk182 37]

Turk:

This is a good thread you started and a well thought out last post. The list of gripes as you refer to them, I have to ask, are they things that were hidden from you when you took the job?  (Keep in mind I don't mean you in particular) 

I understand it is quite competitive to get these jobs, yet you successfully tested and competed and were awarded the job despite the prior existence of these gripes.  You did enter knowingly into a trade/profession where approx. 2/3 of the participants are volunteer. Were the vol. ff's suppose to vanish when you stopped volunteering and were awarded the career job? There was also and still exists, the option to apply, test and compete for a job in a fully career department. 

I am with you, not looking to start a war either, but since you asked in the interest of truthful discussion, I'm relating some thoughts of fellow volunteers like myself in combination departments.

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Rich

I was well aware of the gripes when I accepted the postion, as I was a volunteer in the same dept. that I am now employed with. Anyone that knows me knows that I had the same attitude as a volunteer as I do today as a career firefighter. As far as the volunteers vanishing I did not think they would vanish. Volunteers are part of the history of this country and hopefully they will continue to thrive. With that said we do have to admit that the numbers of volunteers has decreased and that is a issue that needs to be addressed. If recuirtment and retention programs are not working do we not at least need to discuss other options. I am not looking to hi jack my own thread so I think this will be my last reply Thanks for everyones input

PS I have emailed the chief of the offending dept. and as of yet had no reply if by some chance he should reply I will update

Thanks again all

Edited August 26, 2006 by turk182

[TBarnum 2]

I have realized that Combination Departments are a unique situation. I have though of but can't come up with that many other jobs where salaried and non salaried people work together at relatively the same skill level.

I entered the Fire Service in June 1982. There have been lots of changes since then. Here are some. Most of these are the same for many other departments.

1) Less volunteer member turnout for alarms ( dont work in town, working longer hours, family commitments) I am at calls and I see who is there and all the blanks on the roll call sheet. When it is time to go to work - doing more with less. In my Department the Career Firefighters have taken on more work(1982 GOD FORBID if you left your apparatus)

2) Not as many working fires (if you dont go to incidents you dont get experience or knowledge) Can go for some time between fires - example I was hired Oct. 1988 and first structure fire I had was Jan. 1992. Skills wont be any good like that, which leads to:

3) TRAINING - This has to be the most important topic today. I remember taking any class I could when I first joined. You cant learn this job and be safe doing it if you dont TRAIN. It does not stop after ESSENTIALS OF FIREMANSHIP (1982) or graduating from the Career Fire Academy(1989).

New York State has come a way since 1982, But there is a difference between Volunteer and Career Training. That alone causes a Us and Them system. When it comes to training it is more like 2nd Cousins than Brothers. And Career Firefighters live,eat,sleep,work together. Of course we are going to bond to each other than to somebody you might see maybe at an alarm if that.

And on the issue of $$$$$ - I did not take this job to rake in the bucks. I want to help people in their time of need and dispair and provide for my family as well.

I am sure there are others that feel the same way.

[x152 179]

I've always liked the Career guys who work in Combo depts. that are antivolunteer, but will volunteer in their own communities. One guy actually told me he does it because he gets better training than in the Dept. where he gets paid. Let's not foget all the Career guys who perform electrical, plumbing, and carpentry services on the side, who are not in these Unions and paying dues, but aren't ashamed to take these jobs away from those Union men that do! In my 23yrs. within the fire service, I have to honestly say, that I haven't seen too many so called true Union men. Many may think they are but in reality, they're nothing but friggin hypocrites. Once again, all decissions are made around the almighty do$$ar. Whether it's Volunteering in their own community to keep their taxes down and/or be eligible for a volunteer pension in the future, or working a Union related side job to supplement their Career FFs. income, but not actually be a union dues paying member within that trade or trades. Who are the real SCABS now?

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Here we go again.........same old.....same old..............

If my memory serves me....wasn't this post about the concern(s) of a member regarding what they thought was a very inappropriate T-shirt?

Thought so....... I guess it is not a surprise that the usual malcontents have now attempted their distortion campaign in an attempt to deviate from the original content (must protect the guilty and stupid).

Some brilliant minds have now chosen to enter the "who's a scab" debate when we should be talking about the "who's the idiot (or idiots) that would allow such a shirt to be made a worn at a town function."

By reading the earlier posts, most responsible fire fighters (notice the absence of "man" or "guy", this is the 21st century) responded with the same disbelief and concern over the content of the shirts. But, somehow we have been driven into the baseless anti-union rhetoric by those who want to mask the real issue.

Kudos boys, you have once again shown that no matter what someone who has the word "volunteer" in front of their name does, there must be some reasonable justification and the IAFF must be at fault (makes sense?)

Oh wait.....here comes the line...... "I saw some anti-volunteer flyers that were distributed by the IAFF one time while at a convention somewhere [unknown]......." this only evens the score.....

Nice try........it is going take a little bit more substance than that.........

The reality is that a bunch of juvenile imbeciles thought they could be cute and/or cool with these shirts.

I wonder if they put the same effort into training and response times (or are those issues not important?) "Yeah, but we sure got in a good dig at those PAID GUYS!"

Fortunately, they only made themselves look like a bunch of idiots (in this case......a picture IS worth a thousand words). One really has to wonder what kind of Department/Administration would allow this type of attire? Sounds like a real "proud, strong, and healthy?" organization......

I only wonder if they had the same animosity towards african-americans, women, jews, muslims, agnostics, asians, latinos, etc....... if the Administration of this Fire Department would have also allowed their public desecration as well?

Perhaps they are on the list for next year's shirts?

[Guest]

Why wouldn't that shirt raise eyebrows with "PAID GUYS"

As would a Red Sock fan wearing a anti Yankee shirt

or worse if that white guy in the picture was wearing a anti black shirt.