sueg

Wow, I go away for a few days and have to catch up.
1) you are correct, but in addition to being retroactively addressed, this really leaves the dept and possibly its leadership open for litigation if a FF is injured or killed and the dept. knowingly is violating this law.
2) As Fire Medic put it:"the 2 in / 2 out rule is that it really wasn't written with the fire service response to building fires in mind." It was written for industry, some hazmat issues, some fire brigade issues and Confined space issues. The idea was if you need SCBA or Supplied Air to stay alive in a work place, then you need a back-up. OSHA never said: "You Only Need 2", they said "you need a minimum of 2"
3) Its not really a trap, because the law says you can suspend the 2 out, when their is a known life hazard in the IDLH environment and you are attempting to make a rescue.
4) OSHA's interpretation is that anyone who is performing a critical roll outside the IDLH environment can not be considered part of the 2 out. So the pump operator who is not pumping can be part, but if leaving the operating pump might put others at risk than no. The IC has a critical roll (in getting more help) and it has been argued that he should never be part of the 2 out.
5) You are correct. NFPA 1710 does address this, by calling the 2 out an IRIC (immediate rescue intervention crew) and once a working fire is declared the standard is it needs to go to 4 members (RIC or FAST).
The real issue here is not enough manpower. and depts. that fight this are the ones how have the least manpower.
1) agreed
2) since the pump operator may not be part of the 2 out (once committed to pumping) and the IC clearly is not, the issue is do you (and by you I mean any FD) respond with enough interior firefighters to safely operate?
3) agreed
4) agreed, but does the ruling help your department prevent dropping down to an even lower response just by the fact the standard exists?
5) Universally true. Remember it was not the intent to rescue from an IDLH that was also on fire, zero visibility, high heat, deteriorating conditions. just a stable work place with an IDLH atmosphere.
6) No where does it prevent ff's from attacking an incipient fire or potentially a fire in the free burning stage. Everyone appears to have missed that one.
Personally, I find too many depts. that are unwilling or unable to send enough firefighters to any incident, much less an active fire. THis should be a major tool to help depts. fight for minimum staffing.

I live in Chesapeake, VA now, and distance between firehouses are much more than he mile or two I was used to in the northeast. In the rural areas of this city of 215,000, there are places where the first due engine (a tanker) is close to10 min for the run to the scene. Second due is another 10 min. As we have learned, a typical fire doubles every 10 min, so with 3-man companies, the first due cannot make entry legally and must wait for the second due to make entry. That means the fire has grown to four times the size it was when the homeowner called 911. Aside from an exterior knockdown and wait for another company, there's not much OSHA will let you do.
Let's say that when the first due pulls up, the homeowner announces to the officer that her baby is inside. The officer repeats this to his crew and one guy goes VES at a rear window and makes a grab of the baby. What happens to the Officer and FF? They are heros and OSHA keeps its mouth shut.
But let's say the baby dies because the ff was waiting for the 2-out?. OSHA again is probably silent.
If the baby dies and the FF is injured? OSHA hangs everybody
The Motto if the story: Life is not fair, OSHA will probably hang you, and FF's usually listen to their conscience when they calculate Risk Assessment.

I don't think we're on different pages. I think we're just looking at this from different perspectives and that's cool. I get that you think it's OK to "do what you have to" with what you've got and you're probably right. The two FF you reference probably can make a difference but that should be the exception, not the rule. Almost every OSHA regulation came about because we (not just the fire service) were doing stupid things that endangered worker safety.
The other problem is not every FF has the training, experience and/or wits to make the judgement calls that you speak of. Without that experience, they will put themselves into far more dangerous situations and eventually reach that point of no return. Think about bnechis's post about training at the FDNY Academy and differences between "upstate" crews and FDNY crews. At least those guys have the benefit of that kind of training and experience, the majority do not!
My issue is that they should never be put in that position because there shouldn't be just two qualified FF operating at a fire. The IC shouldn't be put in that position either. Bottom line is there are entirely too many departments that operate without enough personnel on a regular basis and without regulations and standards it would only be worse.

When you consider what the intent of the 2 in/2 out rule is, I would say that anybody who is counting non-interior qualified/capable personnel towards the 2 out are clearly fools.
As Dinosaur points out, the rule itself appears to ignore certain best practices for handling an incident, like the need for an IC and pump operator for situations the rule would apply to for the fire service.
The reality is that the rule is typically going to really only be a consideration during the initial stage of a fire response while additional units are still enroute.
As someone who's department has a minimum on duty staffing of 5 and had been as low as 4, it's certainly not ideal, but it is possible for the IC to man the pump and direct incoming units until additional personnel can arrive and take over that role.
Additionally, the 2 out is not going to be sufficient to perform a FF rescue in most cases.
So, it begs the question, depending on the situation at hand, is it better to initiate an interior fire attack (potentially halting the fire growth) with just your 2 in / 2 out or waiting until you have sufficient personnel to staff that plus an IC, a pump operator, etc., but allowing the fire to grow and potentially be "more dangerous" when the fire attack is initiated?

The problem is it is generally enforced retroactively - after something bad happens. You can get away with it until someone gets hurt, or worse, and then they will be under the microscope.
At issue isn't the interpretation but rather the underlying purpose of the regulation, which as I recall was to insure someone was there to rescue the crew if something happens in an IDLH environment. Saying that two exterior FF is enough for the two out is a trap. If something happens to the crew in the IDLH, the exterior crew either has to rescue them in violation of the regulation or not rescue them and leave them to their fate.
I believe there are OSHA interpretations (really the only ones that count) that say the IC or pump operator can count toward the two out (if they're qualified) but think about that practically. A mayday is transmitted and the IC abandons command to become part of the rescue crew. Who will know what's going on or where the mayday is coming from? Who will know how many people are operating and where? There are so many problems with that strategy it isn't funny. Likewise the pump operator. He abandons his post and goes to rescue the crew only to find that more water is needed or another line needs to be charged by another crew. Bad plan!
The underlying problem is no standard for FF (outside of the career service) - at least in NYS - and no compliance with NFPA 1710 or 1720 to make sure enough qualified FF are on the scene.

As a 30+ year EMT/28+ medic and 4+ CPRP medic, I just can't imagine waking up and seeing a call that I did getting a 13 post thread. You give it your best. You make critical decisions in the span of seconds, decisions based on presentation, training and experience. If it works, you feel great for little while. If it doesn't, you feel like s*** for a long while. We all know that when we show up. I wasn't anywhere near this call, but I sure do feel bad if the person who was is watching it get dissected here.
That said, the Bird thread is valid.

That's the only way volunteers are permitted to operate down here in Prince George's County. There is no such thing as home response here, except for Chief Officers who have take home vehicles from their companies or those who are assigned a vehicle by the County FD. Some stations are all career, most are combination, and a few are 100% volunteer. Your company requires you to do a certain number of hours of staffing (Its company specific, but for us its 32 hours a month for in-state volunteers, 8 a month for out-of-staters and 48 hours a week for live ins.)
Most of the live-ins are college aged guys/gals going to school, typically for Fire Science at UMD or one of the community colleges, though an increasing number are going to Paramedic school. Given our station's proximity to Andrews AFB, we also get a lot of volunteers who have jobs on base and live in the area.
Some volunteer companies are staffed 24/7 (typically the 100% volunteer ones) but most of them are combination and they get a shift together when there are people available.
Each type of unit has a designated minimum staffing by County SOP. When your company is staffed you notify Communications and you're put into the CAD as an available unit. The CAD assigns the closest units to fill out the required assignment, no picking and choosing. The CAD also allows for cross staffing (example, most of the time we cross staff between an Engine and a Rescue Squad, so the CAD can pull either unit depending on what they need us for.) Also the hierarchy between career/volunteer members/officers is clearly defined by county law so there is minimal confusion.
Don't get me wrong there's plenty of screwed up stuff about PG County, but by and large its a vast improvement from anything I've experienced in departments I was a part of in the northeast.

Interesting article.
When VoIP first came out there were big problems in getting correct addresses and even to this day many of them when correct are formatted wrong and cause problems for our automatic dumps from one system to another. When Optimum first started their cable phone service in CT all calls went to Norwalk because that was the PSAP for Cablevision. When this was pointed out to them you would have thought we were speaking some unknown alien language. It took a while for them to decide this was a problem that needed fixing.
Some of the problems with 9-1-1 in general could be fixed by public education. Other could be solved with some more regulation (shudder) This article speaks of a nationwide 9-1-1 system, which is not true at all. Each phone company that provides the local service has their own system although they work along similar processes. Even the steps in the article happen quickly, with the data attached and the routing done before the caller hears the first ring.
When we get a cellular 9-1-1 call, we get phone number and location, often just the tower location. Some providers will fine tune location, but even when we get an off tower location it is usually around a 300 meter radius from where we see it on the map. The phone company's map is so out of sate, it has streets that have not existed since right after WW2 and schools that were torn down or moved many decades ago. So sometimes even a valid coordinate puts it in the middle of a non-existant address. The worst part is we do not get a name. It seems to me that since all cell companies have this on file, so they know who to bill, they could easily provide us with a subscriber name, just like the land line companies do.
As for public education we need to stop telling people about the national 9-1-1 system. More and more people think there is one big dispatch center that sends out all calls nationwide. I took a call the other night from someone who got a call from home and called Stamford for an ambulance for an address in the Bronx. We have no way to transfer calls to NYC and are limited to finding public numbers only if the dispatcher happens to have a personal lap top set up at their desk. I usually have my lap top with me but it is not always turned on. That caller was told to have the person who called him call 9-1-1 from the Bronx, so he hung up and called right back and got me again.
The hacking / Swatting issue is important but is even a problem locally. A few years ago we were getting a series of false fire calls on a cell phone all over town. This was before we got anything other than tower location. We were able to flag the number as a probably false alarm, but still had to respond to the address given to investigate. Even on legitimate calls it is not always the closest tower that relays the call. Tracking these phones is quite a chore. Each phone company has their own protocol for releasing data and not all phone companies are 24/7. With the spoofed phones this will require the phone company to actually look at the routing information and I am not even sure if that is available in real time.
The other night there was a swatting incident in Norwalk and they called looking for information of someone that might have encountered Stamford PD but we had no matching information to help them out.

New Fairfield 91-2 Ambulance a P.L. Custom Emergency Vehicle ambulance, Medallion Series GM Diesel custom designed so it more comfortably fits all of our equipment and to more closely match the space, inside height (to keep our taller members from having to hunch over) and equipment placements of 91-1. Still waiting on production pictures, but delivery due either early September (or early October?). Wanted to get the power stretchers for both ambulances, but even one would have put us way over budget, so for now just going with a newer version of a regular Stryker stretcher to replace the one, and working on getting another one for 91-1 since that way older one just broke. Many, many thanks to Patterson for their loaner - you wonderful people saved us from being down an ambulance, and we very much appreciate that. So do our patients

This thread is about Stamford Fire-Rescue's new Engine 8, a 2014 KME with a 1500 GPM pump, a 1,000 gallon tank, and 30 gallon foam tank. They operate out of a temporary station next to Stamford EMS Station 4 on Vine Rd near High Ridge Road. It covers the northern part of the city, specifically the High Ridge and Turn Of River sections. They cover urban, suburban, and rural sections of the city In addition, they cover the Merritt Parkway. A large part of their district is unhydranted. The company, Engine 8, was put into service in July of 2008 to cover the Turn Of River Volunteer fire department district. It is always staffed by 1 Officer, One Firefighter/Apparatus Operator, and one Firefighter. When staffing levels allow, a fourth crew member is also added. All members are part of IAFF Local 786.The company nick name is "Ridge Runners - 8 Ball Express"
Stamford Fire-Rescue's entire district is diverse, as they cover multiple high rises, commercial, industrial, and transit infrastructure, including a major interstate, I-95, the Merritt Parkway, a large Metro-North Commuter Railroad maintenance yard. There are large hospitals, office buildings, and large scale residential developments. They also cover a large suburban section, as well as some very rural area with very large and valuable real estate and huge areas of brush with limited access.
The career firefighters of Local 786 staff 9 Engine companies, 3 truck companies, 1 heavy rescue company, and 1 shift commander. A Fire Lieutenant also is a coordinator in the city's consolidated 911 communications center. This adds up to a minimum of 52 firefighters a shift. A Hazmat company and Hazmat support vehicles are cross staffed.
The KME Severe-Service Predator type chassis was specified and chosen for the terrain, roads, and structures it covers.
I'd really like to thank Captain Matt Palmer, one of my favorite fire captains, for taking the time to give me a complete in depth tour of the new KME. I do want to apologize, as the photos didn't turn out as nice as I wanted them to, but hope everyone still enjoys them and can see all the neat specs.
For comparison to the new Engine 8, here's the FORMER Engine 8, a 2005 HME.


And here we go with the NEW engine......
Stamford Fire Rescue
Engine 8
2014 KME Severe Service Predator
1500/1000/30
Engine 8 showing off the new colors and graphics of SFRD:

Engine 8's company patch

Front view

Front intake. KME standard is the chrome.

Front trash line

Driver's area

Auto Charge Status Center - a new product from Kussmaul

Drivers area panel - transmission control, air brake, Jake (engine) brake, power windows, headlights, panel dimmer, power mirrors

Drivers area panel - A/C controls, On-Spot automatic tire chain control, arrowstick control, 12V port

Drivers area panel for lighting controls

Engine tunnel....housing the LUCAS 2 automatic CPR compression device

EMS compartment....rear cab

Another shot of the engine tunnel...

Drivers side cab compartment....housing various items including a 12V DC hydrant barrel pump....hydrant barrels are pumped in the early fall to prevent freezing during wintertime

Pump Panel

Tank level indicator

Evacuation (air horn) button and fuel/DEF level indicator light on pump panel

Remote control for drivers side intake valve

Remote controlled drivers side intake valve

Pump panel uses wheel-type valves instead of push-pull "T"'s, making for an easier and smoother opening and closing of valves

Note how all valves are labeled for function. "Blitzfire", "Flying Wye", "ProPak", etc

Drivers side body

12V port for hydrant barrel pump mentioned above in the MPO's compartment

A real leather helmet that's seen real work

Rear shot

Blitzfire mount

Holamatro Combi Tool with CORE technology and new compact pump

Apartment/High Rise hose packs with pike poles integrated into tray

Officer's side saw compartment with LDH hose clamp. Saw blades are mounted to a custom mount on the right of the compartment, and pre-mixed fuel is in the yellow bracket

Officer's side front body compartment containing various tools

Wheelwell compartments with plenty of space housing 2 SCBA bottles and a water can

Officer's side

Officer's side pump panel. Notice the ProPak foam pack....unique to see it pre-connected with a 1" line

Officer's side rear compartment....containing various tools for the officer

Heavy duty rubber wheel well flares - easy to replace if damaged

Drivers side Whelen Pioneer LED Scene Light

Scott Safety thermal imaging camera mounted under officer's side rear jumpseat

Officers side cab....

Officer's area in cab

Whelen Pioneer low-profile side scene light mounted between officer's/driver's door and rear cab door....brand new product available from Whelen

Officer's side safety panel and Q siren controls

Officer's side radio and Firecom in cab-communication control panel

Officer's MDT

New SFRD logo on cab door

Hydrant type legend

Station 8's "Temporary" Engine bay

Station 8's "Temporary" Living Quarters

Apartment/High Rise pack.....note the custom made tray for it

Cab roof

Storage area on top of the "L" shaped tank

Storage area and deck gun above pump panel

Ash can

LED lights to illuminate the crosslay area

Note the high-intensity headlights

Brow light

Front bumper with LED illuminated cornering light

LDH connection with hydrant bag

If they Keep Adam 12 and Emergency! where they are this will give us a 3 hour block each afternoon of "Educational TV".

It's the yellow one on the right. L-73.

I know its a small picture but I believe this is the Supertrain on the lower left. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

RIDGEFIELD, NJ - An Orange County man is lucky to be alive after his tractor-trailer crashed in New Jersey today.
State troopers and firefighters rescued Lawrence Scherf, of Vails Gate, who fell into a creek after his tractor-trailer crashed through a guardrail and caught fire along the New Jersey Turnpike.
The crash happened just before 6 a.m. in the northbound lanes where the turnpike meets Interstate 80 in Ridgefield. The man went into the waters of the Overpeck Creek.
Link to News12 Hudson Valley;
http://hudsonvalley.news12.com/news/orange-county-truck-driver-lawrence-scherf-narrowly-escapes-death-1.9095283#autoplay=true
Hell of a job on the part of theTroopers, hats off to them and all emergency responders involved in this incident.
Speedy recovery to the driver, who is ironically from my town.

This is one out of Ft. Lauderdale in the 80's.

Bingo, DiBlasio does not want perps caught, because they are his biggest supporters

I'm not a cop, so I might be in the dark (pun intended) on this subject, so I have a question.
Isn't it really, really hard to sneak up on the bad guy if you are riding around with flashing lights that lets the perp know you are coming?

27 years and you don't know the difference between 60 Control and the Westchester Fire Training Center. Interesting and telling

Good turnout in Bridgewater!
http://youtu.be/mDrpnBEhvYk

Bridgewater CT County Fair FIremens Parade 8/15/14

What are you talking about!? This isn't an issue of 5 points! This is an issue of denying someone a job without cause. This ALSO isn't about anyone else. This is a guy who had every endorsement from the mayor to the police chief and down to the citizens of the village. The outward appearance here is that he was denied because of petty political infighting. The veteran aspect helps draw positive attention to this issue, positive for the candidate and I'm glad he's using it to his advantage.
Could there be a valid reason for passing this guy over, legally? Sure could. If there is, then why don't these 4 trustees just come out and say it. From the outside looking in, the silence is awful telling.
Lastly, on a personal note....your comments thus far are quite telling of your character. Degradation of the commitments of those who serve in the military is disgusting. Self gratification? I work with guys who have multiple purple hearts....and the scars to prove it. Come on over and tell them about their self importance and see how long you stay standing on your two feet. Standing in the line of fire, taking bullets and shrapnel and living with the fear of death everyday seems like an awful lot to do for 5 measly points on some civil service test. Although....in your eyes, they don't deserve special recognition. Well, keep enjoying football Sunday and holiday's with your family....don't worry, no one had to sacrifice for you to have those comforts.
Veterans working on Wall Street....guess what? You put military service on an application for ANY job and you get a leg up....deservedly so.
Love how you threw a jab at Volly's in there too. That is a SYSTEM with some problems, but filled with a majority a well intention'd people.
Enjoy your comforts, paycheck and straight 8's in Eastchester.
Love,
The U.S. Armed Forces
Vet credits are actually given to anyone who serves in any capacity. Obviously, there is a differentiation of an additional 5 points for those who are combat wounded.

Here are some upcoming CT new deliveries:
Avon - Has bids out for two engines.
Beacon Falls - Funding approved to replace Engine 1 with a quint, but nothing has been ordered.
Bethany - Has received a new EMS fly car (1L1).
Bethel - Funds approved for new engine, don't believe anything awarded.
Bethlehem - A new pumper tanker is being spec'd out with an order to be placed this budget.
Branford - M2 refurbished ambulance, E4 1997 Pierce Saber complete refurb.
Brooklyn - Mortlake Fire approved funds for a new heavy rescue (They bought a Rescue 1 demo).
Chaplin - Has purchased a used 2004 Pierce pumper.
Cheshire - Has gotten funds approved (last I knew for a new aerial truck).
Colchester - Spartan/Marion Heavy Rescue I/P.
Colebrook - I believe they're spec'g a new pumper.
Danbury - Pierce MMA I/P.

Deep River - Has purchased a used 2008 ALF 100' Quint tower ladder from Schenectady, NY.
Derby - FD-10 (Ambulance) refurb.
Derby - Purchased Trumbull Center's Dive Bus.
Derby - Ordered is a Pierce Arrow XT for Storm Engine Co.
East Hampton - Pierce Arrow XT pumper and Peterbuilt/Pierce 2,000 gallon tanker.
Center Groton - Dodge/Marion Rescue.
Greenwich - Has two Seagrave rescue engines on order.
Guilford - Twin Spartan/4-Guys 3500 Gallon Tankers.
Hamden - (3) Ford Crew Cab Pick-Ups to replace the rescue trucks in town.
Hebron - Spartan/4-Guys pumper.
Killingly - Danielson & South Killingly light duty rescue trucks.
Mansfield - Spartan/SVI pumper tanker.
Middletown - funds approved for a new pumper.
Milford - Smeal Quint I/P.
New Britain - Smeal aerial truck I/P.
New Canaan - Spartan/Marion pumper.
New Haven - Engine 5 Pierce Arrow XT 500/water 500/foam 1500/gpm.
New Milford - Water Witch Spartan/Marion pumper.
North Haven - Emergency Unit #1 Ford/PL Custom ambulance.
Old Saybrook - Pierce Velocity pumper I/P.
Oxford - Spec'g another pumper unsure if ordered (Riverside F.D.)
Preston - Smeal will be building them a rescue pumper.
Shelton - (2) KME quints are in. The Squad should be in this week followed by Huntington in August.
South Fire District - Has purchased a 2014 Spartan/Marion Demonstrator pumper. Unit will replace Engine 32 (2000 KME which will be traded in) and will be almost a twin to Engine 30 (2007 Spartan/Marion) with 1500 gpm pump and 1000 gal tank. Also will carry A and B Foam. Expected delivery in the fall after some additional equipment is added at Marion and cab is given White over Red paint to match rest of South District fleet.
Sherman - Specs were being done for a new ambulance and pumper. Unsure if anything ordered.
Simsbury - (2) Spartan 4 guys pumper I/P.
Somers - Kenworth/4Guys 3,000 gallon tanker.
Southington - approval for a new pumper.
South Windsor - Sutphen pumper nearing completion (Fall delivery last I knew).
Pawcatuck - should be getting the E-One Typhoon in any day now.
Thomaston - Smeal Rescue Pumper ordered.
Nichols ordered a heavy rescue.
Wallingford Engine 1 Sutphen pumper delivered.
Waterford - Jordan new E-One engine nearing completion.
West Shore - Ford Pick-Up light duty rescue.
Westfield - Signed a contract with Rescue 1 for a new heavy rescue.

Why doesn't City Hall leave the decision making to people who have a clue about policing and let the members of the NYPD do their jobs and then stand behind them an support them? I know that's just an insane notion though, right?

I don't think EDP is a pejorative or derogatory term either. Especially when you consider how the term came about. Also, like velcroMedic said, what is the alternative term? "mentally ill person" that isn't accurate as there are people who display emotional disturbance because of medical conditions (TBI, brain tumors etc) or developmental disabilities or extreme stress that don't meet the criteria to be termed "mentally ill."
As far as why emergency services personnel are hesitant to seek help, I think it has a lot more to do with the very real negative consequences on the job (i.e. desk duty, rubber gun squad, forced retirement, problems when taking psych evals for other jobs down the line). I'm not sure how to fix the issues with this though.
To the broader issue of an ineffective mental health system, there is an answer to that, just not one anyone wants to hear (increased use of hospitializations and institutionalizations of severely or dangerously ill persons)

It wouldn't be that much different if he died of cancer or a heart attack. His fame as an actor and comedian is what's driving most of the attention and over time it will subside and eventually almost everyone will just forget. Just like they forget other tragedies and even events like 9/11. It's just human nature.
As for the term "emotionally disturbed person", why is that wrong or hurtful. It's an accurate description used to characterize people's behavior and/or symptoms. What's the alternative? Is this just a "PC" response?