Fire calls, colleges & dollars: What's the fair share?

[JetPhoto 626]

Fire calls, colleges & dollars: What's the fair share?

Most mid-Hudson Valley colleges are the No. 1 users of their local fire departments’ services, but contribute only a fraction of the districts’ budgets, an exclusive Poughkeepsie Journal analysis found.

Calls from Vassar College for fire and emergency medical services from Jan. 1, 2012, to Nov. 30 were the most of the local colleges, while Dutchess Community College had the fewest, Journal research found. Marist College had the biggest dollar contribution, while the Culinary Institute of America made the smallest financial contribution.

College campuses are mostly tax-exempt properties because of their educational purpose, including advancing people’s occupational and civic capacities. That tax status has been at the center of the longtime debate in communities about whether nonprofits, which are major property owners, should compensate municipalities for services they use. Some taxpayers who have been dealing with escalating fire taxes for several years feel colleges and some large-scale nonprofits should contribute more.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20130113/NEWS/301130065/Fire-calls-colleges-dollars-What-s-fair-share-

This is true for every county that has large not for profit areas

[PFDRes47cue 653]

While I was a Mutual Aid Member of the Potsdam Fire Department we were kept quite busy from college calls. Both Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam were in our 1st due district. They contributed funds to the fire department. A significant amount of the funds used to purchase Tower 5 came from the colleges.

Edited January 13, 2013 by PFDRes47cue

[x129K 1,393]

Them poor bastards from Fairview (Dutchess) kind of get screwed 6 ways to Sunday.

[x635 4,066]

Great topic!

Coincidentally, Fairview FD (the one in the Town Of Greenburgh, Westchester County), has a fire district where over 60% is non taxable.

In 1996, there were plans to build a large new assisted living and skilled nursing facility near the WCC campus, which would be non-taxable. The not-for-profit donated Rescue 3 a at the time brand new International 4x4/KME as a trade off. I don't know, now that it is built and operating, if this facility contributes more towards operating expenses, because they sure-as-heck use those services, but I'm sure a FFD member could update us.

As far as colleges go, there's a trade off. Yes, there are increased responses, but at the same time, do these colleges contribute enough to the local economy to balance things out? Such as jobs, sales tax from local businesses generated by college students patronizing lose local businesses, etc.

I do think, even with the economic benefit most colleges provide to the surrounding communities, that these colleges should meet with local emergency services officials to discuss what is needed to provide the agencies who serve the college with their fair share.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

No different in the city: Columbia, NYU, Wagner, and other colleges enjoy a free ride.

[lt411 145]

How about this situation? Take a volunteer dept. in the lower Hudson valley, that is running over 2,000 calls per year. The majority of those calls are EMS (approx 1,400). Now in this Fire district, there is a huge (and still expanding) medical group, which recently added a "Urgent Care" walk-in unit inside their building . There is also a large nursing home within the district.Both these facilities are for-profit businesses. (I won't mention the residential senior housing areas, which also generate numerous calls).These two faciities have put so much strain on the EMS side of the dept., that the commissioners have hired two EMTs from 0600-1800 Mon-Fri through a commercial service.

Since this is a fire district, is there any way to bill for these calls, say over a certain amount of calls for service per year? How would splitting off the EMS component into a volunteer ambulance corps, and bill )is this what Mohegan FD did ?

[ex-commish 490]

As it stands now fire districts can not bill for EMS services. The only alternative would be to take EMS out of the district and form it's own entity.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Yale and UNH both contribute money to their local emergency services, though obviously Yale can be more generous. UNH does provide a lot of manpower to local FDs as volunteers as well.

[JetPhoto 626]

Some departments in Dutchess have either given up Vol. EMS or the town now contracts with a commercial service and the FD supplements a BLS bus in the evening or if possible during the day as a back up BLS bus

[x635 4,066]

Now in this Fire district, there is a huge (and still expanding) medical group, which recently added a "Urgent Care" walk-in unit inside their building . There is also a large nursing home within the district. Both these facilities are for-profit businesses

If they are for-profit, then they pay taxes. I know a lot of FD's that are not responding to calls in urgent care facilities unless they are serious, since these facilities already have medical personel on hand.

Issues with facilities that cause a frequent and abnormal workload for FD and EMS, should be dealt with when these facilites go through the planning and zoning process.

Is it possible to have a municipal or district law requiring these facilities to pay for the workload they create in some form or fashion? And/or should we teach these facilities when to call a commercial provider and when to call 911?

[Ladder44 73]

? And/or should we teach these facilities when to call a commercial provider and when to call 911?

Oh for the love of god this should be apart of the LPN/RN curriculum. I can't even think. How many times ive gone for the "abnormal labs or X-rays" or whatever reason it may be and we go to the skilled nursing (which needs a name change) priority 1 were met by the facility Dr and he states "Dr John smoe is awhere your coming". Uhm Dr why we bypassing 3 hospitals to

go 30 mins away? This isn't a 911 emergency call 1-800-AMR and schedule a transfer. Dont waste the 911 car for these events.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Ladder44

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Oh for the love of god this should be apart of the LPN/RN curriculum. I can't even think. How many times ive gone for the "abnormal labs or X-rays" or whatever reason it may be and we go to the skilled nursing (which needs a name change) priority 1 were met by the facility Dr and he states "Dr John smoe is awhere your coming". Uhm Dr why we bypassing 3 hospitals to

go 30 mins away? This isn't a 911 emergency call 1-800-AMR and schedule a transfer. Dont waste the 911 car for these events.

I am not sure if it is a Vermont thing or a medicare/medicaid thing but I was told that nursing homes, skilled nursing facilities and rehab centers had to report each time they called 911 as an emergency for a pt. We met with many facility directors and medical staff and advised them that our commercial agency would provide contracted ambulance trips to local ERs for non-emergency pt transfers to the ED. We sold this "product" as a way for these facilities to reduce the need to call 911 for a pt, thus decreasing their call numbers, thus increasing their score with the government agency and making them look more attractive to clients/pts. This had the added benefit of decreasing the 911 call outs to these locations.

Now all a RN has to do once they discover a pt is in need of admission or a trip to the ED is get Dr approval and fill out 1 piece of paperwork called a physicians certification statement and then call the paging/answering service and we will have an ambulance to you anywhere in the county within the hours.

Business for my company and decreases the stress on 911, win-win in my book.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Issues with facilities that cause a frequent and abnormal workload for FD and EMS, should be dealt with when these facilites go through the planning and zoning process.

Is it possible to have a municipal or district law requiring these facilities to pay for the workload they create in some form or fashion? And/or should we teach these facilities when to call a commercial provider and when to call 911?

Good luck with that. NYS law requires an environmental impact statement on all new projects. In it must include how the project will effect FD, PD, EMS, Water, sewer, noise, traffic, etc. They must also state how it will effect the services currently being provided to the existing community.

We said the highrises and New Roc city would put a strain on FD/EMS, The developer said: "No impact"....City council said we need the development.

Next project and the same developers say No impact, we show impact and city says, we need development. Now city still wants more development and they want to reduce cost of FD, they ask why so many calls at these developments? How can we cut the numbers down?

You can't charge them extra, either you are billing the patients (if allowed) for transport or you are taxing them. If you tax them extra, they will fight it and win.

[v85 212]

I agree that unless you are doing CPR, or the commerical service has no units available. There really isn't a reason to be paging volunteers to nursing homes and urgent cares.

[helicopper 1,050]

I agree that unless you are doing CPR, or the commerical service has no units available. There really isn't a reason to be paging volunteers to nursing homes and urgent cares.

If it's in your response area and they call 911 for an ambulance, there's a reason for paging volunteers.

The distinction you make bothers me - not just you saying it but the prevailing sentiment, so this isn't directed at you. If you're an EMS responder, you go where the calls are regardless of pay status. If you're a volunteer and don't want to respond on calls to the urgent care center when someone walks in feeling ill but is really having an MI, then you need to reevaluate your association and priorities.

We don't pick and choose our calls. The notion that we can/should/do is one of the failures of our current EMS system and why some calls go unanswered.

[x129K 1,393]

If it's in your response area and they call 911 for an ambulance, there's a reason for paging volunteers.

The distinction you make bothers me - not just you saying it but the prevailing sentiment, so this isn't directed at you. If you're an EMS responder, you go where the calls are regardless of pay status. If you're a volunteer and don't want to respond on calls to the urgent care center when someone walks in feeling ill but is really having an MI, then you need to reevaluate your association and priorities.

We don't pick and choose our calls. The notion that we can/should/do is one of the failures of our current EMS system and why some calls go unanswered.

AMEN! One of my pet peeves when I ran on a vollie ambulance...

"ohhhh we go there too many times....it abusive..."

BS...if you have a collection of old/sick/frail/etc people, you HAVE to expect they will need your servies!

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree that unless you are doing CPR, or the commerical service has no units available. There really isn't a reason to be paging volunteers to nursing homes and urgent cares.

While many "routine" calls might be better handled by a transport unit instead of 911 the issue is (like it or not) residents in nursing homes are still residents of your comunity and you have a moral and ethical obligation to serve them.

Remember that almost everyone will someday either be there or have loved ones there. It is sad that the care there is often poor, its made worst when those sworn to protect them, have so little interest.