Hero's or potential victims

[lad12derff 283]

So new Rochelle catches a job in the projects last night and this is the outcome. Just found this on another site and copied and pasted it. I can tell you for sure that when my company responds to a EDP or suicide attempt or some other dangerous call and PD advises to wait until scene is secure before entry I do just that. I have also been on location first before the arrival of PD and stood fast and waited. I do not know if the person I am responding to is injured or dead and I really don't care at that point. I do know that my guys won't end up injured or dead by my stupid decision to enter a scene I can't control. Do FD's really need to get on the air to advise PD to stand by until scene is safe or should they be grown ups and realize it's out of their hands? Do these officers really need to be on the fire floor? Maybe we should wait for the bagpipes to decide.

Two New Rochelle Police Officers Injured In Fire

By James O'Toole on Mon, 06/24/2013 - 04:41

ShareThis

A Sunday evening fire at 590 Fifth avenue sent two New Rochelle Police officers to Sound Shore Medical center for treatment.There injuries are not serious according to fire department radio reports.

The fire broke out in a fifth floor apartment that was not occupied at the time of the fire.The fire was contained to one apartment. Some other apartments got smoke damage and water damage.Most people returned to there apartments after the fire department gave the all clear

Edited June 25, 2013 by x635

[helicopper 1,050]

The patch or badge (shield) doesn't make any difference. Case in point:

WAYNE COUNTY, Pa. — Daniel "JJ" Lomax was always willing to help.

So when the off-duty police officer and volunteer firefighter came across a car crash in Wayne County early Saturday morning, he stopped to assist. When he left his vehicle, he came into contact with downed power lines.

(Great Bend Police Image)

Officer Lomax was electrocuted and died at the scene. He was 55.

As news of his death spread through the communities where he worked as a part-time officer, and the fire departments where he volunteered, family, friends and colleagues said Officer Lomax died like he lived — by helping others.

"He always put others first in his book," said Matthew Pritchyk, first assistant chief for the Scott Twp. Hose Company. "He was always looking out for others."

Officer Lomax, of Factoryville, served as deputy chief for the fire department, and also volunteered in Factoryville and for the Meredith Hose Company in Childs. He worked as a part-time police officer for departments in Mayfield, Forest City and Great Bend.

On Saturday at about 3:10 a.m., Officer Lomax came upon the scene of the accident on Sawmill Road in Salem Twp., about 1 1/2 miles west of Route 191. Details on the crash Officer Lomax stopped for were unavailable Saturday. The Wayne County coroner's office has ruled Officer Lomax's death accidental.

[x635 4,066]

The comparison of FD/EMS staging at a violent incident is irrelevant to this type of incident.

Cops. Firefighters. EMT's and Paramedics. 911 Dispatchers. We are (the true ones) are in it to HELP people. We need to WORK TOGETHER, no matter what! This whole "it isn't their job" finger pointing is ridiculous. At some point, all of our jobs are going to overlap in order to serve the people who need it.

I've seen and heard of numerous incidents where Police Officers have arrived first and assisted in alerting and evacuating residents, especially in large structures. They aren't trying to be firefighters, they are trying to help-there is no agenda. And, as I said, it happens all the time nationwide.

[INIT915 1,119]

Given that a very quick Internet search also yields a number of stories regarding actions by off-duty FF's that have never been addressed on this Board, I think there must be more to the story.

I mean, not a single one of those stories, (including two notable local stories, one from Westchester and one from NYC) have made it to EMTBravo, have they?

I loathe to assume that certain parties have such vile for the rare moment that LEO's get positive accolades, but, it's starting to seem pretty clear.

What else can explain this apparent double standard?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I've seen and heard of numerous incidents where Police Officers have arrived first and assisted in alerting and evacuating residents, especially in large structures. They aren't trying to be firefighters, they are trying to help-there is no agenda. And, as I said, it happens all the time nationwide.

Any responder (PD, FD, EMS....) who does not have training to understand if they are being helpful or not because of there actions is not helping.

Not understanding if busting open doors or windows will improve smoke conditions or cause a back draft or flashover might save a victim or doom a victim.

A number of years ago I ended up on a scene where a police officer vented a window while his partner was inside searching. It caused either a backdraft or a flashover (dont know didnt get there till a few minutes after that). The officer was a close friend of my partner and before I intubated him he asked my partner to tell his wife and kids goodbye andhe loved them. The next day my partner quit as a medic.

Good intentions are great, but why do we do all kinds of training and have rules, and SOP's if the moment the scene turns bad we just rush in and ignore everything we learned (or did we fail to train our personnel and have sop's)?

[lad12derff 283]

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Given that a very quick Internet search also yields a number of stories regarding actions by off-duty FF's that have never been addressed on this Board, I think there must be more to the story.

I mean, not a single one of those stories, (including two notable local stories, one from Westchester and one from NYC) have made it to EMTBravo, have they?

I loathe to assume that certain parties have such vile for the rare moment that LEO's get positive accolades, but, it's starting to seem pretty clear.

What else can explain this apparent double standard?

Point them out, I know I have bashed a few ff/ems for doing s*** they were not trained to do or that violated there own policies.

LEO have an incredibly difficult job, but in this particular case the officers who got hurt did not need to be in the position they put themselves in.

[INIT915 1,119]

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

If you say so.

[lad12derff 283]

The patch or badge (shield) doesn't make any difference. Case in point:

As for this post it has nothing to do with the original topic. I have stopped to offer assistance at plenty of car accidents and would expect other trained professionals to do the same. It's apples to oranges here my friend

[FirNaTine 370]

Were they ESU?

[x635 4,066]

So then, what is the resolution to do in these types of situations where the FD is not on scene yet and lives are at stake? It's easy to say "Wait for the FD", but realistically? If someone is brought out of the fire structure by a civilian and PD is first arriving, should they not do CPR since it's "not their job" and the person might have contaminents on them?

Should FD develop an SOP and do in-service training with PD so that we can all work together safely to save life and property?

[INIT915 1,119]

Point them out, I know I have bashed a few ff/ems for doing shit they were not trained to do or that violated there own policies.

LEO have an incredibly difficult job, but in this particular case the officers who got hurt did not need to be in the position they put themselves in.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35461-off-duty-fdny-firefighter-chris-murray-makes-heroic-rescue-in-greenburgh-1-22-10/

How's this one for an example. Not only did neither you nor your colleague make any critique, I'll point out that several very experienced and respected firefighters on this Forum commented positively. This firefighter, who I agree is a hero, made an educated decision with the information he had in front of him, just like the Rye cops.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10662724/fdny-firefighter-biking-to-work-rescues-woman

This one also didn't just draw the ire of this Forum. Yet again, a trained professional who made a split second, heroic, decision.

These two stories took seconds, literally, to Google. I wonder what the response would have been if off-duty cops made these rescues. Hmmmmm?

[lad12derff 283]

So then, what is the resolution to do in these types of situations where the FD is not on scene yet and lives are at stake? It's easy to say "Wait for the FD", but realistically?

Do you really think the dispatch should sound like this? Sector 9 Sector 11 respond to a reported structure fire at 234 maryjane lane FD has been notified. We all know PD will respond to a call much faster than FD. Fact of life and non disputable. Yes we are all in it to help. I would also think that those of us who have made a legit rescue ( i do have a class 2 from my job ) don't consider themselves a hero. As a matter of fact at the job i was awarded the medal from I avoided the press like the plague. Thats not why I do it and I would like to think it's not why 95% of this forum does it. Do you really want to put yourself in a position to which you are not trained and be remembered as a hero? Do we really need to pull up to a job and have to pull 2 cops out first before the people that occupied the home. You can bet your last paycheck it will be the cop I'm grabbing before the civilian. We can't do it all and the uniform comes first. I just can't believe that professional people on this forum have their heads buried this deep in the sand. They did not drive past this call, they were dispatched to it.

[lad12derff 283]

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35461-off-duty-fdny-firefighter-chris-murray-makes-heroic-rescue-in-greenburgh-1-22-10/

How's this one for an example. Not only did neither you nor your colleague mad any critique, I'll point out that several very experienced and respected firefighters on this Forum commented positively. This firefighter, who I agree is a hero, made an educated decision with the information he had in front of him, just like the Rye cops.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10662724/fdny-firefighter-biking-to-work-rescues-woman

This one also didn't just draw the ire of this Forum. Yet again, a trained professional who made a split second, heroic, decision.

These two stories took seconds, literally, to Google. I wonder what the response would have been if off-duty cops made these rescues. Hmmmmm?

Both calls had members of service driving by and not dispatched to it. Same with the FDNY Brothers who have witnessed assault victims and stepped in to help. You need to come up with the ones where FD was dispatched and told that is was something they were not trained to do and were praised as heros.Or maybe this incident? Another event that a professional stepped in but was not dispatched to.

A wild Brooklyn bar brawl left a Port Authority cop with a busted jaw and a firefighter with a severe knife wound Saturday after both rushed to the rescue of an NYPD officer being pummeled by a crowd -- including an ex-Marine and the nephew of Republican state Sen. Martin Golden, authorities said.

The firefighter lost a pint and a half of blood -- leaving a puddle on the sidewalk -- when an artery in his arm was slashed in the 3am melee that involved beer bottles and knives, and the PA officer will need his jaw wired, sources said.

"It was a street brawl," said eyewitness Mike Anello, 22, a property manager. "It was chaos."

The mayhem at the Kettle Black Bar in Bay Ridge, which was caught on surveillance tape, allegedly began as a dispute between John DeCarlo, of Staten Island, and an off-duty cop.

DeCarlo, 22, was at the bar with four friends when he allegedly punched the officer, who had been chatting up two women, police said. The cop also had a bottle shattered over his head.

The firefighter and Port Authority cop -- who know the NYPD officer, but were not with him -- jumped into the mix after seeing him on the floor.

Bouncers then pushed the five suspects out to the street and tried to keep the cops and firefighter inside, Anello said.

But the mayhem was reignited when the NYPD officer, who refused medical attention, got outside and tried to write down the license-plate number of a car the men entered.

The PA cop identified himself and told them to go home.

"I don't care who the f*** you are," one of the assailants said, and then decked the PA officer. Another man kicked him in the face when he hit the ground.

The firefighter was stabbed trying to break up the fray.

DeCarlo was charged with assault, criminal possession of a weapon and menacing. Kevin Crowley, 23, a former Marine, his brother Michael Crowley, 20, Dan Golden, 23 -- Martin Golden's nephew -- and Peter Jung, 23, were all charged with menacing. Knives were recovered in the bar and "at DeCarlo's feet" outside, a source said.

Read more: New York Post

Read more: http://www.myfoxny.com/story/17427565/gory-fight-as-fdny-aids-cop#ixzz2XBisVLdQ

[lad12derff 283]

^{I'm sure these firefighters didn't consider themselves heros. Just another tour!!}

[INIT915 1,119]

Both calls had members of service driving by and not dispatched to it. Same with the FDNY Brothers who have witnessed assault victims and stepped in to help. You need to come up with the ones where FD was dispatched and told that is was something they were not trained to do and were praised as heros.Or maybe this incident? Another event that a professional stepped in but was not dispatched to.

The only differentiation you can make is that in some cases they were dispatched and in some cases they were driving by? Your hypocrisy is reaching new heights. How does that make a difference? Does freezing water not impose hypothermia as quickly if you are a passer-by when compared to following a dispatch? Does smoke from a fire not affect the lungs in the same manner if your a passer-by versus following a dispatch?

I think you have now fully answered my questions regarding your bias.

[lad12derff 283]

The only differentiation you can make is that in some cases they were dispatched and in some cases they were driving by? Your hypocrisy is reaching new heights. How does that make a difference? Does freezing water not impose hypothermia as quickly if you are a passer-by when compared to following a dispatch? Does smoke from a fire not affect the lungs in the same manner if your a passer-by versus following a dispatch?

I think you have now fully answered my questions regarding your bias.

if you say so

[x635 4,066]

We can sit here all day and argue this. I respect your view points and experience greatly. I understand what you are getting at. Sometime, I like to play devils advocate to get a good discussion going.

Here's another situation, and it's not directed at anyone. Let's say a Police Officer arrives on a weekday, at a structure fire with children trapped in a rural area of the county. He knows that it would take the first due with minimal manpower at the very least 15 minutes to get there. He maintains his safety and waits, despite the screams of the parents. However, there is a fire chief who arrives on scene by himself, make entry, and gets trapped. Dispatch just toned out for the 3rd time for a driver for the engine, and a full crew for the ambulance. Now what?

All I'm trying to say is not every situation is black and white.

[lad12derff 283]

We can sit here all day and argue this. I respect your view points and experience greatly. I understand what you are getting at. Sometime, I like to play devils advocate to get a good discussion going.

Here's another situation, and it's not directed at anyone. Let's say a Police Officer arrives on a weekday, at a structure fire with children trapped in a rural area of the county. He knows that it would take the first due with minimal manpower at the very least 15 minutes to get there. He maintains his safety and waits, despite the screams of the parents. However, there is a fire chief who arrives on scene by himself, make entry, and gets trapped. Dispatch just toned out for the 3rd time for a driver for the engine, and a full crew for the ambulance. Now what?

All I'm trying to say is not every situation is black and white.

Are we not trained in risk vs reward? If a cop is dispatched to a rural part of the county and knows FD is quite a distance away then he/she must decide the risk vs reward. If a cop is dispatched to a job in a city jurisdiction and knows full well that FD is right behind them then that too is a risk vs reward decision. At the end of the day it is up to our training which includes risk vs reward and not just fire ops or police ops to base our decisions. I know my company and the Brothers who I work with will get the best decision I can make at that moment and that's all I can promise.

[calhobs 110]

I feel you do what you have to do, it is no big secret that when we chose our profession that it was dangerous. I have walked into scenes where I was wondering what the hell am I doing in here. But I did what I had to do. The choice of saving a life out weighs your own life at times. I look back now and say to myself would I do it again? I come to the same answer every time. YES I would.

[wraftery 1,275]

The title of this thread is "Hero or Potential Victim." In my opinion, if there is a hero, there has to be a potential victim. There has to be an extreme danger that a hero must risk to save a life. But also, a hero must be aware of this danger and understand that there is a potential of him being severely injured before he can be called a hero. A person who is oblivious to the danger to himself is not a hero. He simply "lucked out."

Those of us who have badges and wear uniforms are expected to be heroes by the public. They believe that it is our job. It is not. Read the oath we took. It says we must uphold the Constitution, obey the department's Rules and Regs, follow orders and so on. We never took an oath that says we must put ourselves in danger or risk our lives to make a rescue. We do that because of who we are within ourselves

Not all cops and firefighters are heroes. There are many slackers out there. I think, on the other hand, that among the people on our jobs , the majority are potential heroes. The just haven't been faced with the rare situation that a moral decision has to be made that will differentiate the man from the hero. The same can be said of people who are not in emergency services.

That being said, think about this:

If a Firefighter enters a burning house and makes a rescue just inside the front door he is said to be a hero.

If a Firefighter makes a complete search of the same burning house and the search turns up no one, he was just doing his job.

[grumpyff 1,159]

That being said, think about this:

If a Firefighter enters a burning house and makes a rescue just inside the front door he is said to be a hero.

If a Firefighter makes a complete search of the same burning house and the search turns up no one, he was just doing his job.

Unfortunately with the bias on this board, remove firefighter from the first sentence and replace with police officer, and everyone will go nuts with how it is unsafe, they are untrained, unprepared, unprotected. I for one am getting real sick of it.

[Chkpoint 131]

I have been to scenes where fellow cops got off on the fire floor to a hallway fully involved. I try to tell some these guys why go in to a fire when FD is right behind us. As I have stated in another topic I'm not going into a fire or CO or gas alarm. That's what FD is for. If I worked in a rural area maybe I would have a different outlook. On the other hand I have been off duty after a shift and driving on the highway and pulled up to (all separate incidents) - overturned MVA, another was a overturn and ejection and another hitting the jersey barrier. All after midnight. I stopped did what I had to do until trooper, EMS and FD came. Called them all in. I also call it luck as I was mins behind the accidents and wasnt involved or having to swerve. It all depends

[Bnechis 3,961]

Were they ESU?

No

[Bnechis 3,961]

So then, what is the resolution to do in these types of situations where the FD is not on scene yet and lives are at stake? It's easy to say "Wait for the FD", but realistically? If someone is brought out of the fire structure by a civilian and PD is first arriving, should they not do CPR since it's "not their job" and the person might have contaminents on them?

Should FD develop an SOP and do in-service training with PD so that we can all work together safely to save life and property?

If FD or EMS arrives on scene at an active shooter and PD is not yet on scene and lives are at stake what should they do "wait for PD" or just rush in? Same concept.

If PD already has SOP that says do not drive recklessly to calls and do not enter fire area and they do both on this call, its not up to the FD to do inservice training. The PD supervisor made it quite clear they did not follow dept policy.

[Bnechis 3,961]

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35461-off-duty-fdny-firefighter-chris-murray-makes-heroic-rescue-in-greenburgh-1-22-10/

How's this one for an example. Not only did neither you nor your colleague make any critique, I'll point out that several very experienced and respected firefighters on this Forum commented positively. This firefighter, who I agree is a hero, made an educated decision with the information he had in front of him, just like the Rye cops.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10662724/fdny-firefighter-biking-to-work-rescues-woman

This one also didn't just draw the ire of this Forum. Yet again, a trained professional who made a split second, heroic, decision.

These two stories took seconds, literally, to Google. I wonder what the response would have been if off-duty cops made these rescues. Hmmmmm?

Ok 1 examble from emt-Bravo 2 years ago. I do not remember seeing it, but an off duty firefighter went into a burning structure. Is he trained to understand what the fire conditions are and how they will change? can he make a risk benefit analisys based on his training and experience? You say we are bashing LEO for the same thing, but you are missing the point, they do not have the training. If an off duty LEO stopped an armed robbery, I (and I believe most here) would not be knocking him/her because they are trained to do it.

2nd example was not from here. 1st time I'm seeing it. and its says he was a trained lifeguard.

It keeps coming back to training.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Unfortunately with the bias on this board, remove firefighter from the first sentence and replace with police officer, and everyone will go nuts with how it is unsafe, they are untrained, unprepared, unprotected. I for one am getting real sick of it.

Its sad that that is all you can see. I have trained a lot of LEO's over the years and this is not bias.

Everyone here is assuming this was a house fire it was not. It was an occupied fire proof multiple dwelling. When the apartment door to an apartment on fire in this type of building is opened the remaining tenents are all placed in grave dangers. If people are still trying to evacuate from adjacent apts or from upper floors and the door is opened the halls and stairs fill with toxic smoke. We are tought to control the door and not force it wide open. This also has the potential to creat a wind driven fire in the hallway, which has killed FF's & civilians. We have been to many fires in these projects the layout is such that a kitchen fire (as this was reported to be) will trap people in the bedrooms (the kitchens are at the front of the apt) if the front door is open and not controlled prior to a hose line being inplace.

If we replace,ff with an off duty ff from an area that does not have multiple dwellings the result would be the same. Forcing opening the fire apt door placed dozens of civilians into a life threatening scenario, particularly since the apartment was evacuated prior to PD's arrival.

How much risk was involved and what was the potential reward?

Also if a PD LT. says his officers did the wrong thing in public, how is it that we are biased for saying the same thing?

[INIT915 1,119]

Ok 1 examble from emt-Bravo 2 years ago. I do not remember seeing it, but an off duty firefighter went into a burning structure. Is he trained to understand what the fire conditions are and how they will change? can he make a risk benefit analisys based on his training and experience? You say we are bashing LEO for the same thing, but you are missing the point, they do not have the training. If an off duty LEO stopped an armed robbery, I (and I believe most here) would not be knocking him/her because they are trained to do it.

2nd example was not from here. 1st time I'm seeing it. and its says he was a trained lifeguard.

It keeps coming back to training.

This will be my last contribution to this thread, as we just won't come to an agreement. I don't understand how "training" can be the deciding factor. Much like how being dispatched to a scene versus rolling-up on the very same scene seems to make a difference. If you think "training" changes the dangers associated with running into a burning building or swimming into frigid waters, then I'd love to have your training. In your example of the armed robbery, "training" won't replace the safety associated with being armed or wearing the appropriate ballistic protection. It's not the end all to be all. Sometimes those in ES, just like those in the general public, are going to see a situation and take action. Absent something egregious, I'm not going to sit back and criticize their decisions, not for another LEO, a FF or someone in EMS. Just like the example above where the FF was lauded, not a single cop bashed him for running into a fully involved structure without any protection. Not so much as a peep from the Members here when it was a fellow FF. Telling, isn't it?

[lad12derff 283]

This will be my last contribution to this thread, as we just won't come to an agreement. I don't understand how "training" can be the deciding factor. Much like how being dispatched to a scene versus rolling-up on the very same scene seems to make a difference. If you think "training" changes the dangers associated with running into a burning building or swimming into frigid waters, then I'd love to have your training. In your example of the armed robbery, "training" won't replace the safety associated with being armed or wearing the appropriate ballistic protection. It's not the end all to be all. Sometimes those in ES, just like those in the general public, are going to see a situation and take action. Absent something egregious, I'm not going to sit back and criticize their decisions, not for another LEO, a FF or someone in EMS. Just like the example above where the FF was lauded, not a single cop bashed him for running into a fully involved structure without any protection. Not so much as a peep from the Members here when it was a fellow FF. Telling, isn't it?

This is all I see here so this will be my last post. See you on the fire floor or the floor above where the real men work!!!

[firemoose827 324]

Given that a very quick Internet search also yields a number of stories regarding actions by off-duty FF's that have never been addressed on this Board, I think there must be more to the story.

I mean, not a single one of those stories, (including two notable local stories, one from Westchester and one from NYC) have made it to EMTBravo, have they?

I loathe to assume that certain parties have such vile for the rare moment that LEO's get positive accolades, but, it's starting to seem pretty clear.

What else can explain this apparent double standard?

I have no "vile" towords any police officer, and if there is a situation that a LEO deserves accolades Im one of the people doing it. You seem to be missing one point yourself...we are concerned for the welfare of ANY first responder that takes it upon themselves to enter an IDLH atmosphere without any information (such as the CO incident). With all of the talk about "chemical assisted suicides", and drug labs with deadly gasses...WHAT would make someone with no airway protection enter in to a situation like that? Regardless of known life hazards?? You could instantly drop dead of exposure if you tried to run into a chemical suicide or drug lab gone bad situation. There was a situation in NY not too long ago where EMS were dispatched to a "Man Down" call. When they arrived the wife was just outside the closed front door saying her husband is on the floor just inside the door and she doesnt know any other way in to get to him...wait, you live there, and dont know any other way in??? That should have stopped EMS there but they forced the door/victim open enough to get to him and 2 medics dropped dead from fumes coming from an illegal drug lab in the living room. The wife knew this and thats why she was not trying to get to her husband.

Point in case- we dont know what is going on inside the house in situations like this; could be just CO, could be a mass chemical suicide, could be a group of druggies fallen victim to their own drug lab, could be ANYTHING.

Police have vests, guns, tazers and other things to handle perps.

Firefighters have gear, air packs, and other tools to fight fires and make rescues.

A TRAINED police officer should be able to look at all the info, the area they are responding to, and have enough sense to say "Ok, I will give FD a few minutes to get here and see where I am at at that point". Just like if I roll up to my bank, look throught he window and see a masked man holding a gun to the tellers head, I will have enough sense to say "Ok, Im going to hold all these people out of the bank and call PD and wait for them to charge in there."

There are situations where it is necessary for us to make split second decisions, like Seth mentioned about the PD arriving on scene of a house fire, kids trapped and FD 15 minutes out...If it were me I would most certainly run in and ATTEMPT to make a rescue any way I could, I am human, all training and uniforms and job titles asside...if I am on scene and other humans are in trouble I will want to help.

Wow have you guys clearly misunderstood the intentions of the story. I for one have no personal problem with any law enforcement agency or specific law enforcement officer. I have countless friends who are cops in just about every agency in our local area. When you guys jump all over the "FD hates PD " bandwagon it is time to look in the mirror and ask yourself WT heck. The bottom line of my posting was to have the people who put themselves and others in harms way when they are not suited to maybe step back a little and think. I really don't give a rats behind about the ones who defend these types of actions. There will never be any type of incident that will change their minds. It must be the capes that are handed out at graduation. It's the ones I will never read about that the message sunk in. Just because the public hates cops does not mean that fire personel does as well. Pathetic!!!!

No one here hates cops. I believe everyone here was confused over your initial post and what your intent was exactly. I myself saw this post when no one had answered yet and I waited for others to respond to see if they knew what you were asking, or wanted to discuss. Just sayin.