Elections and Officers Requirements

[firemoose827 324]

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??

We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.

That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.

Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?

It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...

Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

[RES24CUE 168]

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??

We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.

That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.

Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?

It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...

Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

Moose,

I empathize with you completely as I was recently placed in a similar situation. I am a 10 year member (joined at 16 years old) of a Westchester County fire department. I have served as an officer for the past 6 years as Rescue Company Lieutenant for 1 year, Rescue Company Captain for 2 years, Engine Company Lieutenant for 1 year, and Captain of the department for 2 years. Additionally, I have taken pride in being well trained and hold certificates for Firefighter 1, Firefigher 2, Firefigher Survival, Rescue Tech Basic, NYS/CT EMT, HAZ-MAT Operations, Truck Company Ops, Firefighter Assist and Search Teams, Introduction to Fire Officer, Fire Officer 1, Emergency Vehicle Operations Course, Emergency Vehicle Operator-Pump, and various Westchester County/Seminar Certifications. Outside of my Emergency Services Career, I have a college degree from a very prestigious Liberal Arts College and am in the process of getting a Masters in Business Administration from an acclaimed NYC University. In my professional career I am an executive for a Fortune 500 company in New York City.

In this past election, I was squeezed out of the line of Officers when an Ex-Chief decided to go around again (lost by 1 vote). At that time, I determined that I no longer wanted to be a part of that organiation and have been to the firehouse for 4 calls (all possible structure fires/entrapments) since the end of my term in may. I have not attended a single drill or meeting. I have drafted my letter of resignation and will submit it next month at our monthly meeting. It was my belief that the values of the organization of which I was a part was no longer consistent with my vision of what an emergency services organization should be and that I no longer wanted to be a part of it. With all due respect, it sounds like you should count your losses as well. Do you really want to be part of a fire department that allows individuals to occupy the rank of Captain with no formal training? Now that you are no longer Chief will you have faith that those individuals are making educated decisions that will ensure your safety on the fireground? Are the members of your organization operating in the best interest of the taxpayers who they serve? It sounds like they would be better trained if they actually cared about the lives of the people who they were responsible for protecting.

I will never join another emergency services organization unless I feel that they take pride in best serving the members of the community and ensure that they are "professionally staffed by volunteers." As for now, my career is over until I find an organization that takes pride in being able to fight fire, doesn't b**** when its time to perform a vigorous, physical drill, and spends less time worrying about attending parades, selling Christmas trees, or having barbecues. In my opinion, the volunteer fire service is somewhat lost and needs a reminder of the true, original goals and ideals on which the system was founded.

[firemoose827 324]

Moose,

I empathize with you completely as I was recently placed in a similar situation. I am a 10 year member (joined at 16 years old) of a Westchester County fire department. I have served as an officer for the past 6 years as Rescue Company Lieutenant for 1 year, Rescue Company Captain for 2 years, Engine Company Lieutenant for 1 year, and Captain of the department for 2 years. Additionally, I have taken pride in being well trained and hold certificates for Firefighter 1, Firefigher 2, Firefigher Survival, Rescue Tech Basic, NYS/CT EMT, HAZ-MAT Operations, Truck Company Ops, Firefighter Assist and Search Teams, Introduction to Fire Officer, Fire Officer 1, Emergency Vehicle Operations Course, Emergency Vehicle Operator-Pump, and various Westchester County/Seminar Certifications. Outside of my Emergency Services Career, I have a college degree from a very prestigious Liberal Arts College and am in the process of getting a Masters in Business Administration from an acclaimed NYC University. In my professional career I am an executive for a Fortune 500 company in New York City.

In this past election, I was squeezed out of the line of Officers when an Ex-Chief decided to go around again (lost by 1 vote). At that time, I determined that I no longer wanted to be a part of that organiation and have been to the firehouse for 4 calls (all possible structure fires/entrapments) since the end of my term in may. I have not attended a single drill or meeting. I have drafted my letter of resignation and will submit it next month at our monthly meeting. It was my belief that the values of the organization of which I was a part was no longer consistent with my vision of what an emergency services organization should be and that I no longer wanted to be a part of it. With all due respect, it sounds like you should count your losses as well. Do you really want to be part of a fire department that allows individuals to occupy the rank of Captain with no formal training? Now that you are no longer Chief will you have faith that those individuals are making educated decisions that will ensure your safety on the fireground? Are the members of your organization operating in the best interest of the taxpayers who they serve? It sounds like they would be better trained if they actually cared about the lives of the people who they were responsible for protecting.

I will never join another emergency services organization unless I feel that they take pride in best serving the members of the community and ensure that they are "professionally staffed by volunteers." As for now, my career is over until I find an organization that takes pride in being able to fight fire, doesn't bitch when its time to perform a vigorous, physical drill, and spends less time worrying about attending parades, selling Christmas trees, or having barbecues. In my opinion, the volunteer fire service is somewhat lost and needs a reminder of the true, original goals and ideals on which the system was founded.

I agree with you. I have been in the fire service for 25 years now and have been a level 2 firefighter for about 15 years. I am a Haz-Mat Tech Basic, National and State certified fire investigator, and I have a training file about an inch thick or more...yet a guy fresh out of FF1 gets 1st asst chief...

I take pride in the fire service and try to uphold the traditions and laws, but its hard when you are one of the few that do that still. I remember when a FF fresh out of basic had to wait to be addressed before they could speak at meetings and such, or when I as a Junior Firefighter had to stand at attention when the chief walked into the room. When senior firefighters spoke, everyone else shut their yaps and listened or got slapped upside the head. When an officer gave an order at a fire scene it was carried out regardless of your training or experience...you did it (unless it was blatently dangerous). Today...these young members get FF1 and start to get big heads and big ideas and visions of glamour and fame and they run their mouths at drills, calls and meetings, disrespect senior members and officers....I even had a guy argue with me in front of the home owner while pumping out their basement...ARGUE with me?!?!?! One of the senior guys/fire commissioners yelled at him and said "a senior fire officer has given an order and you will follow it!!!"

Its getting dangerous...in my area there are MULTIPLE chiefs under the age of 25...But if those of us that can make changes all left the department, who will be left to make the necessary changes and fight for the tax payers and people that call 911? So I guess thats why I am staying, maybe lay low for a few months, then start to poke into things that will anger people...LOL

[ex-commish 490]

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??

We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.

That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.

Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?

It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...

Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

Moose I am in total agreement with you. It is 2013 and we still elect officers. As far as FASNY or OFPC there is nothing they can really do being we all operate under home rule especially when it comes to officer selection and training and I do not believe either organization would want to get involved in local dept operations.

[robert benz 344]

Not to start a fight, I train as many vol ff's as I do career, BUT these statements by you fellows are why the career side pushes so hard for equality in training, to call yourself a firefighter, officer or chief. Look whats happening, A officer wants to change things for the better, and he is voted out. The fire service is in a lot of trouble, it is time to wake up.

[firecapt32 282]

Not to pile on-- but there are things you can do...Career departments have had laws passes to establish the "229" for training. every volunteer organization was against this.. So you need to get your County/ State organizations moving forward. there's a lot of middle ground out there for training. you might go over the heads of local Fd's and go to the local Govt board of trustees- mayor--city council and make them get involved---but I have to say good luck with that. If you have a progressive local govt --they just might understand the problems.

just a few random thoughts

[bad box 371]

Parades, bar-b-q's, softball games and having a couple of beers with friends are all potentially enjoyable social passtimes. Sadly, far too many V.F.D.'s are run more like social clubs rather than professional emergency service organizations. The posts here are a very small sampling of what goes on in many V.F.D.'s where politics (rather than the right skill set) determine leadership. This is made possible by the fact that there is no real oversight of the V.F.D.'s other than that which comes from in house elected boards of directors or town elected boards of fire commissioners who more times than not are mostly voted on by department members who are residents of the district. It is dangerous that in so many parts of our country we are still relying upon this type of back woods, good old boy 'system' when it comes to setting and enforcing the standards for providing life and death services for fire, rescue and E.M.S.. I believe that in many areas a county led combination career / volunteer system would best address this issue. Not only would it place the responsibility of enforcing training requirements for firefighters and officers alike in the hands of full time, career chief officers (who don't have to kiss up to the membership to keep their position each year, but it would also be an answer to the ever worsening problem of poor turnouts of personnel for calls at times of low availability as well as for calls that many volunteers choose not to show up for ( smells and bells, sick calls, etc.). It's high time that counties place as much importance upon the provision of fire, rescue and emergency medical services as they do upon law enforcement, education, road maintenance and recreation (all of which are run as full time career agencies).

[firemoose827 324]

Not to start a fight, I train as many vol ff's as I do career, BUT these statements by you fellows are why the career side pushes so hard for equality in training, to call yourself a firefighter, officer or chief. Look whats happening, A officer wants to change things for the better, and he is voted out. The fire service is in a lot of trouble, it is time to wake up.

Oh and there's more...

This department I am in is one of the only departments I know of that allow ladies auxilliary and squad only people to vote for fire officers....I have been in 4 departments, all of the other 3 had only firefighters allowed to vote on department business. Ladies had their own meetings, as well as the rescue squad because there were people who only wanted to be on the squad and not the fire department so they had their own business meetings. This dept allows ALL of them to vote for officers, and any department business such as purchases of equipment. That is where my comment above regarding voting on someone because they wear their hat better or are more handsome than the other came from...

Im seriously thinking of making a move to my 5th department, but it all relies on whether or not my nearest MA department will accept me as a transfer...one can only hope...

[SageVigiles 1,194]

There ARE some volunteer departments out there testing for officers. Too bad none of them are near me...

I think training requirements should be escalating, just an off the top of my head list and this is minimum. Also CTs certification track is different than NY I believe:

LT: Firefighter 2 moving towards Instructor, ICS 100, 200, 700, 800

Captain: Instructor moving towards Officer 1, ICS 300, moving towards Incident Safety Officer

Chief Officers: At least Officer 1 moving towards Officer 2, Incident Safety Officer, ICS 400

[38ff 250]

In my dept, the requirements for being an house or fire officer is spelled out clearly in the dept bylaws. We have time in the dept AND classes needed to be considered for running for a position. If you don't meet the requirements, you cant run. And to be able to vote on an officer as a member, you have to attend certain percentages of calls, drills, meetings, fund raisers, etc. We have a committee that oversees everything. It has worked well for us.

[firemoose827 324]

There ARE some volunteer departments out there testing for officers. Too bad none of them are near me...

I think training requirements should be escalating, just an off the top of my head list and this is minimum. Also CTs certification track is different than NY I believe:

LT: Firefighter 2 moving towards Instructor, ICS 100, 200, 700, 800

Captain: Instructor moving towards Officer 1, ICS 300, moving towards Incident Safety Officer

Chief Officers: At least Officer 1 moving towards Officer 2, Incident Safety Officer, ICS 400

I would LOVE to see testing requirements for officer positions in volunteer departments ON TOP OF certain other requirements like age requirements, years service as at least FF1 level, officers training requirements like fire officer 1 or 2 AND ICS courses 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800. Other training requirements should be mandatory as well such as AVET, Haz-Mat (at leat 1st responder level), rescue tech basic, Incident Safety Officer, FAST and Firefighter Survival, Pump Ops, Ladder Ops, FBAA and Principles of Investigation among a few, but that would just serve to piss off more cry babies that would complain about the training hours needed and time away from home and family...BUT, if there were a huge structure fire where you spend a day or two away from home that is never a problem...just the training hours...

[RES24CUE 168]

I would LOVE to see testing requirements for officer positions in volunteer departments ON TOP OF certain other requirements like age requirements, years service as at least FF1 level, officers training requirements like fire officer 1 or 2 AND ICS courses 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800. Other training requirements should be mandatory as well such as AVET, Haz-Mat (at leat 1st responder level), rescue tech basic, Incident Safety Officer, FAST and Firefighter Survival, Pump Ops, Ladder Ops, FBAA and Principles of Investigation among a few, but that would just serve to piss off more cry babies that would complain about the training hours needed and time away from home and family...BUT, if there were a huge structure fire where you spend a day or two away from home that is never a problem...just the training hours...

I am with you 100% on this issue Moose. However, when I put out feelers in hopes of implementing professional qualifications for firematic Officers in my previous organization, I was met with nothing but resistance. The membership is simply unwilling to impose restrictions upon the members, especially when the vast majority of those members fall short of reasonable certifications to be fire Officers, and would be imposing restrictions on their future hopes of being Officers or Chiefs and making more work for themselves.

The major counter-argument that arose over and over again in response to my argument for training standards was, "we already can't fill the Officer's positions that we have." Every year the nominating committee has to ask people to hold certain Officer's positions so that the positions do not sit vacant. Therefore, you have a few "good guys" that know relatively little about firefighting, who have no ambition, and who have little to no training holding one of the three Lieutenants spots, the Engineers position, and maybe one of the Rescue Company Officers positions as well. The membership doesn't want to implement Officers training requirements because it would further limit who could hold an Officers position and who could act as a spot-filler in the event that no qualified individual wants the job. My contention is that, if an Officer is not trained, then he is not a Firematic Officer...he is nothing but a SPOT-FILLER who may one day make a decision when all are looking at him for direction that will get his members hurt or killed.

However, the organization with which I was previosly active, does have restrictions to be Chief. The Chief must be in the department for a minimum of 5 years, hold an Officers poisition for one of the previous 3 years, have Firefighter 1, and be qualified on all pieces of apparatus (we do not require NYS EVOC or Pump OPs). Therefore, according to those standards, the Chief must have made his points for 5 years (25 calls and no other attendance satisfies this requirement), be popular enough in one of the previous 3 years to be a spot-filler in a lowly line Officers position, be trained by a non-certified, in-house instructor to drive and pump the rigs, and be qualified according to NYS fire standards to work under the supervision of a trained Fire Officer. NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!

Another major concern is that each year the Department with which I was previously affiliated would have to get rid of a number of members who did not meet the requirements to be active members. Therefore, the members regularly fall short of meeting the standards that are imposed to be a firefighter. Each year many members fall short of meeting their 75 departmental activity points (3 points per call, 2 points per drill, 1 point per meeting, 1 point per hour per standby), do not pay their $20 membership dues, do not show up for 1 of the 3 sessions of physicals/fit testing that we do in the summer (thats right I said 3...we need that many just to get the majority of the guys through who actually care), or do not attend 6 of the 9 sensitivity training classes (3 Sexual Harrassment, 3 Harrassment/Workplace Bullying, 3 Workplace Violence) that are mandatory for each member and are held every other year. So if the members cant even fulfill what is required of them to be firefighters, how will anyone ever be able to satisfy the requirements to be an Officer.

Lastly, since the vast majority of those who vote in district elections are the members of the department themselves, the fire district is hesitant to forcibly impose such standards on the membership for fear of not being re-elected. Instead, everyone seems to rely on the logic "well, we seldom get fires so the lack of urgency surrounding such a matter does not require us to address it at this time."

I know I must sound like a disgruntled individual (which I probably am as I put my heart andsoul into this organization for a decade only to have it thrown in my face by lazy, untrained individuals who didn't want to follow my lead to substantial improvements). I would like to say that I have never been a career firefighter as I do not want people to think that I am fueling the Career vs Volunteer debate. However, after seeing the quality of service that most members of my previous organization could provide to the taxpayer, I am wholeheartedly sold on the belief that a Career fire department is the only way to ensure that adequate fire protection is available to residents 24 hours a day, 365 days per year. Some volunteer departments are better than others, but all are inferior to a 6 man crew of well-trained, in-shape, career firefighters on call round the clock.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In my next life I am coming back as a lawyer for a fire insurance company........I think it would be pretty easy to recoup most of the fire loss by going after substandard FD's and their officers.

[v85 212]

Our fire department has training requirements. I'm not exactly sure what they are, but I know we have them

[Biggins415 6]

brian a/k/a firemoose its sad what the company has done for sure im sorry to hear someone else is being craped on for hard work bud my advice to you is sit back and watch them make fools outa themselves when they dont know what to do during a run let them ruin it for themselves !! its the only way some people learn these days-everyone thinks they can do it better-nows their chance

good luck hang in there

[Remember585 815]

Why is this in the Law Enforcement section?

First of all, I totally agree in required training for Officers. We recently implemented requirements for our officers, which followed the recommendations of OFPC (DHSES, whatever they are now) and/or NYSAFC (I forget who). We added some other stuff. In order to be flexible to the masses, we had to let former officers be allowed to hold positions again for another two years to give guys time to meet the new requirements, provided the past officer isn't moving up, in which case they must meet the new requirements.

Second, and I swear by this - it doesn't matter what classes or training someone has. If the guy/gal hasn't been around long enough to earn their peers' respect on and off the fireground - they don't belong in the ranks. Experience, training, attendance above that of the minimum, common sense and a mindset of doing the greater good for their company/department are the attributes of a good officer.

Third, you can have someone who either does or does not have a lot of training run your department into the ground. We have suffered quite a few poor Chiefs and poor Company Officers over the years, and I am sure we'll make those mistakes again. (Hopefully I am wrong) You can have a Chief who does nothing at all for two years, followed by one that does a ton and changes things for the good for two, then have another flapjack come in and set you all back in time again for two years. Realistically, term limits should be looked at and if the majority is content with their leadership - why change it because it is someone else's turn? If a guy is in say, 5 years, and the majority has had their fill of him, VOTE HIM OUT. It isn't rocket science to me, but I am part of the minority.

Westchester-area Career Officers generally get FDNY's FLIP school, right? Man I would give my left nut for that kind of program. The officer courses offered to the rest of us don't tell you how to handle your calls - they just tell you how to avoid getting sued and show you ways to earn your members' respect (which is fine, but where the f*** is the REAL TRAINNG?!?!)

I think there are plenty of people in this county - paid and volunteer - that could put together an amazing officer program for both sides of the fence which would cover your soup to nuts. Then, and only then, could any of us really feel "trained & prepared."

/rant

[Bnechis 3,961]

FLIP's is required by state law for all career members on their 1st promotion.

FLIP's does not teach you how to handle calls (since FDNY handles calls very different from say Pelham), you need to know that to score well to get promoted.

[PoqFFEMT 6]

This is straight out of our company bylaws:

ARTICLE TEN

DUTY REQUIREMENTS

Chief - Everything required for Asst. Chief

Assistant Chief - Everything required for Capt

Officer 2

Incident Safety Officer (ISO)

Captain - Everything required for LT

Officer 1

LT - Firefighter I/II

Instructor 1

NIMS 100, 200, 700, and 800

Strategy and Tactics for Initial Company Operations (STICO)

3 Year minimum membership with FF 2 Certification

Edited December 11, 2013 by PoqFFEMT

[RES24CUE 168]

Why is this in the Law Enforcement section?

First of all, I totally agree in required training for Officers. We recently implemented requirements for our officers, which followed the recommendations of OFPC (DHSES, whatever they are now) and/or NYSAFC (I forget who). We added some other stuff. In order to be flexible to the masses, we had to let former officers be allowed to hold positions again for another two years to give guys time to meet the new requirements, provided the past officer isn't moving up, in which case they must meet the new requirements.

Second, and I swear by this - it doesn't matter what classes or training someone has. If the guy/gal hasn't been around long enough to earn their peers' respect on and off the fireground - they don't belong in the ranks. Experience, training, attendance above that of the minimum, common sense and a mindset of doing the greater good for their company/department are the attributes of a good officer.

Third, you can have someone who either does or does not have a lot of training run your department into the ground. We have suffered quite a few poor Chiefs and poor Company Officers over the years, and I am sure we'll make those mistakes again. (Hopefully I am wrong) You can have a Chief who does nothing at all for two years, followed by one that does a ton and changes things for the good for two, then have another flapjack come in and set you all back in time again for two years. Realistically, term limits should be looked at and if the majority is content with their leadership - why change it because it is someone else's turn? If a guy is in say, 5 years, and the majority has had their fill of him, VOTE HIM OUT. It isn't rocket science to me, but I am part of the minority.

Westchester-area Career Officers generally get FDNY's FLIP school, right? Man I would give my left nut for that kind of program. The officer courses offered to the rest of us don't tell you how to handle your calls - they just tell you how to avoid getting sued and show you ways to earn your members' respect (which is fine, but where the f*** is the REAL TRAINNG?!?!)

I think there are plenty of people in this county - paid and volunteer - that could put together an amazing officer program for both sides of the fence which would cover your soup to nuts. Then, and only then, could any of us really feel "trained & prepared."

/rant

Spoken like a true a******...I'm sure you have the majority vote from the brainiacs in your department!!!

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you??

We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out.

That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these.

Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government?

It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department...

Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

sorry to here this.

[Remember585 815]

Spoken like a true a******...I'm sure you have the majority vote from the brainiacs in your department!!!

Please elaborate.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Remember585

[ONLOCATION 24]

Spoken like a true a******...I'm sure you have the majority vote from the brainiacs in your department!!!

It looks like the only a****** here is possibly yourself. I agree with the majority of the posts here and it is a proven fact that the vast majority of the Volunteer Fire Service elections are pretty much popularity contests and thats garbage. A member can have every class and certification in the book but the bottom line is some people have no business being an officer or chief period. It shouldnt even be a question agencies should and obviously need to have requirments for positions and need to stick to them and just dont "bend them" or make exceptions. Turn-over in the ranks in agencies because "thats just how it is" is Bull****, If they work and are willing to stay put and continue to have the drive to do the job the right way...leave them and groom others to do the right thing, not blow it on a "Filler". The respect of your members toward a potential canidate for the drive of doing whats right for the common good of your district/department/company, citizens, and safety of the membership is paramount. I'd go out on a limb and have to say that maybe it just wasnt your turn and it might be time to start making more training videos.

Edited December 11, 2013 by ONLOCATION

[nydude2473 79]

I think across the board everybody should have training, whether they are an officer or not. Training is key to have a fully functional fire department, one that can operate efficiently, safely, and in a professional manner. I think it's ridiculous when guys just get put to a job because of who they know and not because of earning the job through hard work and commitment to wanting to better themselves and their fellow firefighters in fire service matters. Not everybody should be an officer, but that doesn't mean you can't grow and do your best to earn the title, to show people that this guy wants to lead the way for the right reasons and wants to give what knowledge he has back to his guys and learn more with them. That I think is what defines a good leader on the fireground. Popularity is all cool but how much is popularity going to help you when the crap is hitting the fan fast. What I think these departments need to realize is that the "Good Ol' Boy" system of years prior is gone and a new era has drawn in where skill, experience, and dedication to the betterment of the service is what's important.

[v85 212]

I do see both sides of the argument.

Having trainings and certifications is important, and elections are in many cases a popularity contest. However, there are plenty of people out there who are very book-smart and can amass binders full of certificates and take tests well, but who have zero business being in any kind of leadership role, either because of their inability to apply their knowledge in the field or because of their personalities.

Wouldn't an officer who took all of the required classes and passed any required tests, but has no "street-smarts" and doesn't have the respect of his subordinates be just as bad as the situation we have today.

[STAT213 332]

Spoken like a true a******...I'm sure you have the majority vote from the brainiacs in your department!!!

I'm still confused. How is 585 the a*hole? Especially if you agree with the majority of what he says? You do realize he is a chief officer in his department, right? So, again....please elaborate.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I would LOVE to see testing requirements for officer positions in volunteer departments ON TOP OF certain other requirements like age requirements, years service as at least FF1 level, officers training requirements like fire officer 1 or 2 AND ICS courses 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800. Other training requirements should be mandatory as well such as AVET, Haz-Mat (at leat 1st responder level), rescue tech basic, Incident Safety Officer, FAST and Firefighter Survival, Pump Ops, Ladder Ops, FBAA and Principles of Investigation among a few, but that would just serve to piss off more cry babies that would complain about the training hours needed and time away from home and family...BUT, if there were a huge structure fire where you spend a day or two away from home that is never a problem...just the training hours...

How is Haz-Mat Operations not a requirement for firefighters? That shouldn't be reserved for just officers or officer candidates. That's crazy and violates OSHA regulations.

It amazes me that we still have these same discussions in 2013 (almost 2014).

[SageVigiles 1,194]

How is Haz-Mat Operations not a requirement for firefighters? That shouldn't be reserved for just officers or officer candidates. That's crazy and violates OSHA regulations.

It amazes me that we still have these same discussions in 2013 (almost 2014).

I didn't include it in my suggested outline because 472 Certification to the Awareness and Operational levels are now required by the State of Connecticut in order to be Firefigher 1 Certified, so its sort of assumed. Those of us who were Awareness/Operations Trained (not Certified) before the new requirement are grandfathered, but the training meets OSHA anyway so you're covered as long as you keep up with your refresher time.

So here's an idea:

1. Establish minimum qualifications for Officers based on objective, comptency based training/certifications and time-in-grade

2. Qualified candidates will take a written exam based on certification material and department policies

3. Individuals who pass the written will be invited to an oral board/assessment center held by Officers from other agencies

4. Scores are calculated based off a weighted system written/oral and an "Eligible List" is created.

5. Candidates on the "Eligible List" are nominated and elected in the traditional way that Officers are now.

At least that way you can weed out at least SOME of the incompetents and some of those who are just doing it for a helmet shield and a license plate will be too lazy to go through the process.

If you want to be an Officer, work for it. Show me the reason you want to be a Leader.

For the record, when I was a POLICE EXPLORER we had written exams and interviews to establish a promotion list. If 14-21 year old kids can do it, WHY CAN'T WE? Sorry lads, but its almost 2014, "That's the way we've always done it" just isn't going to fly anymore. When "tradition" gets in the way of ensuring we have the most competent people available in positions of responsibility, it might be time to change the way we do things.

Edited December 11, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

In NYS it is required by law for all Firefighters (including scene support) to have Hazmat Ops BEFORE they are allowed to respond to ANY calls.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

In NYS it is required by law for all Firefighters (including scene support) to have Hazmat Ops BEFORE they are allowed to respond to ANY calls.

I know we're kind of getting off topic here, but I'll bite: How can you have HAZMAT Ops if you're not trained to wear SCBA or a respirator?

Edited December 11, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

You do not need SCBA for Ops.

The definition is Defensive operations, from a safe distance based on the PPE level provided.

I would paste the section of the law, but I have not been able to paste anything on EMTB for a week now.