nfd2004

The misleading term is firefighter, because the public expects a firefighter. When your kid or parent is trapped inside and a bunch of people show up with turnout gear, they expect them to actually do something.
 
Recently, the Mayor of Port Chester claimed that the PCFD had 300 members, 150 interior. But we know that they only paid for 75 bailouts (required by NYS Law) but 16 were for the career FF's of both PCFD and RBFD. So they only have 59 at best. To many depts lie, even to themselves about the number of members.

 
 I must admit, it's pretty tough to argue that case clearly spelled out in black and white. So that is now well understood.
 
 So what do we tell the neighbors who see a fire truck show up as they scream; "There's somebody in that building". Do you tell them help is on the way ? The same one's that just applauded you as you marched by in the big parade. The same one's that were glad to buy you that nice big shiny fire truck you pull up in. The same one's who listened to your firefighter stories and could not believe how great you really are.
 
 Reminds me of a TRUE story I once heard. While attending a company picnic, one guy starts to talk about the big fire that he fought a few weeks earlier. Of course he apparently didn't know that another firefighter was sitting right there listening to the whole story as he was pounding down a couple of burgers. That other firefighter had not said one word about it, he just listened. The suddenly out of no where, one woman pops up with, "Oh Helen, isn't your husband a firefighter too" ?
 
 Well folks the secret was now out. As that hero firefighter asked "Well where are you a firefighter" ? I guess that other FF figured it was time to talk. he said I work at the firehouse right up the street from where that fire was. I was there and as I recall, you actually never went to that fire. "Didn't you just relocate with your company into the empty firehouse up the street" ? "In fact now that I think about it, when we got back, I actually remember seeing you there". "You really were never at that fire".
 
  You can just guess what it was like as his balloon just got a pin stuck into it.
 
  Motto of the Story. Just be careful what you say to people when it comes to you fighting fires. Make sure you tell them that you are "Exterior Qualified Only". You don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. Believe me, that was NOT the first time either.

I have always been under the impression that the term "Firefighter" or "Fire Officer" covers it all. So where should the certifications and qualifications end.
 
Do we break it down to a firefighter who might be qualified to force a door but not open a roof ? Or a guy who is only qualified to be a backup guy on a hose line and not be on the nozzle.
 
Let's not try to fool ourselves. Or worse, the people we are suppose to serve. "Either you're in it or you're not". A fire truck full of "Exterior Firefighters" will do absolutely NO GOOD to the occupant who is unconscious from heat and smoke, lying on their bedroom floor.
 
Wearing a badge and a uniform as an Exterior Firefighter, marching down Main St in the Fourth of July Parade takes a lot of balls. It's a totally false claim trying to be a firefighter marching in the same group. Maybe carrying a banner saying; "Exterior Qualified Only" would give credit to where credit is due. I have no problem with that, if that's the way it's done.
 
 I'm sure we have all gone to fires where the smoke and heat is banked down at the doorway and some guys suddenly "WISH" they were "Exterior Only" firefighters. In those few cases where it has happened, they became "INTERIOR Certified" whether they wanted to or not. That's when they get a real taste of what this "Brotherhood Thing" is really all about.

Perhaps we should since some in the fire service insist on misleading the public about their department's capabilities.

That's interesting, because I searched NFPA 1001: Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications for the term "Exterior Firefighter" and there is no qualification listed under that...

Those "support" soldiers still have to qualify on the range, get thru chemical training and then while driving supply trucks they have had to fight, some being killed, other injured and some captured. They are placed in support rolls because that's where they are needed and that's where they will perform best, not because they are unwilling or unable to do it!

This is one of Hackensacks SADDEST DAYS. I remember it well. As x635 mentions it, this brought in a new awareness to a new way of fighting fires with truss roof construction. As I remember it, it gave a new awareness to how fires would be fought depending on the type of building construction. We learned that some roofs would actually collapse much quicker than others and in very large sections under fire conditions. A dangerous place to be on or under.
 
 It wasn't long after the Hackensack incident in which another truss roof collapsed killing six firefighters. This would be in 1978 when Six  FDNY members were operating on a truss roof at a Walbaums Supermarket in Brooklyn, NY.
 
  We learned how these light weight truss wooden roofs were held together with gusset plates having very little holding power. Roof construction became a big part of building surveys as well as the age of the building. Newer constructed buildings were actually more dangerous to firefighters than older buildings, by the shear fact that older buildings would hold up much longer.
 
  Those of us who were around won't forget seeing the desperate attempt those Hackensack Firefighters made trying to save their Brother Firefighters. Just as those FDNY members did. In fact they breached through a brick wall but it was too late.
 
  One firefighter was seen waving good by to his family from that Walbaums roof as they had just dropped him off at work. Minutes later that roof collapsed and he was one of six that were gone.  

From "The Secret List" FirefighterCloseCalls.com
 
 

Of course I've heard the term, my point is that it is a misleading term used so that a department can advertise they have "100 Firefighters" when really there are only 25 are qualified to actually fight a fire.

 
 Great post Pete. I certainly agree with every point you say.
 
 I bet you'd never see that happen !!!! But it just did....

I agree wholeheartedly. It is the culture within many VFDs that has to change and adapt to the modern realities. What worked years ago doesn't in most cases anymore. An all career dept is not the one size fits all solution either since many towns and cities simply can't afford the expense. That said there are a number of departments that have accepted the facts and made changes. Now to be fair some have done so and made dramatic improvements while other have only begun to move forward, but the point is moving forward they are. Sadly for every one that is moving forward there are 10 that are stagnant or worse still, moving backwards. 
 
Ultimately the most practical solution is a combination system where staffing is distributed effectively to provide the most coverage in a timely manner with a reasonable cost...on paper that is. We all know it isn't that simple. To the outsider looking in at the fire service, it must seem that we, as a group, are either completely insane or downright stupid or both. That there are so many things which get in the way of providing a decent level of service to those we are all here to protect is a travesty of monumental proportions..and quite frankly it defies reason.
 
Until ALL firefighters decide to live up to OUR core values and put those we serve first there is little hope for progress. The simple truth is that we have all let something other than those we serve become our primary concern. It doesn't matter if it's a fiefdom, a contract, a grudge or ambition, everything that stands in the way of us serving our communities in THEIR best interest is the problem. And it is OUR problem
 
You know it isn't always the other guy, in fact it almost never is. We might all do well to remember that "I'm a part of the problem" and work on fixing ourselves before we go lambasting "the other guy". That admission would do more to change the fire service for the better that any debate, battle or scheme in our collective history. We are all a product of the culture we are a part of, but we are also the only ones who, right now today, can begin to change that culture. 
 
As was told to me and as I pass along to every new FF that passes through the door..."NEVER forget that you are not here for you, you are here for those we SERVE"!! Somewhere along the line it seems many have forgotten that fact.
 
 
 

 
 But what about all the other firefighters in Port Chester that didn't back those eight guys. Except for the guys at Washington Hose and Fire Patrol Rescue, nobody else came forward to stand up for what is right and point out to the mayor where he is wrong. It seems to me that this was NOT only the politicians, but a group of firefighters as well, who did NOTHING to try and defend those guys.
 
 I just can't buy the fact that it was only the politicians who caused this problem. Most of us know just where those other guys stood and who's corner they were in. A group of firefighters from two companies gained the respect they all deserved. While a large group of our so called Brothers and Sisters sat there and made absolutely no attempt to change things.
 
 Well the fact is we all know who our Real Brothers and Sisters are. This was proven since this story first started to appear. Many of us across the country won't soon forget that we are NOT really all Brother/Sister Firefighters. We all may ride on pretty fire trucks with lights and sirens, but we really have nothing in common. There is a very large gap between us.

It's a damn shame this thread is getting so little attention.  This should be a big wake-up call for every department to take a few minutes and do an honest, objective self-assessment to answer "can this happen to us?"

For younger FF coming up, this should be a heads-up that if someone is telling you to do something that doesn't seem right you should confirm it.  And if you don't have the training, don't do it! 
 
The old attitude "new guys / young ones need to keep the eyes open and mouths shut" has no business in today's fire service.  Have a questioning attitude.  Not to be obnoxious but to learn and make sure you're doing it right. 
 
Sadly we can't assume that the senior guys - or even all the officers - are leading by example.

Before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that we all do it wrong, I'm saying we can always do it better!  Be smart, be safe, and live to fight another day!

"LTFIREPRG", thank you for providing that information. Of course I completely disagree with that decision made and you bring up some very significant facts as well.
 
I would encourage those eight laid off Port Chester Career Firefighters to seek firefighter employment elsewhere. If any of those eight firefighters are interested in doing so, if they would be willing to pass on their email address through a pm, I would certainly do my best in trying to keep an eye open for any career firefighter jobs in the Connecticut area. I had to make a move myself 75 miles away from my home city of Bridgeport because of some affirmative action deal which rob me of the firefighter job I really wanted. Today some 40 years later as a retired firefighter, I think it was one of the best moves that I was ever forced into. Maybe a move for you would be one the best moves as well. "You (PC8) are not alone". Many others have been forced to relocate to do a job they were happy to once do in a place that let them down.
 
In addition Thank You to the members of the Washington Engine and Hose Company and to the members of Fire Patrol and Rescue Co. your support will NOT be forgotten. Many feel that you stood up for what is right and we, as active and retired firefighters respect you for what you've done. I know that I won't forget it and I'm sure many other career firefighters won't forget it as well. I consider you the strongest link in the chain, holding both career and volunteer departments together as ONE. you represent the way a True Brotherhood should be. "All for One and One for All". Unfortunately, for the others the same thing can not be said. They represent the reason why this form of cancer is allowed to grow and do more damage from the Inside - Out. A Brotherhood that turned their backs on eight firefighters and would rather see these guys unemployed. I PROMISE YOU, "we won't forget". We will all be watching your future performance.
 
 I also feel very strongly that these eight laid off firefighters should pursue every legal avenue that they have to get every penny they might be entitled to.  After winning and collecting anything you deserve, tell Port Chester just where they can go and just leave.
 
   I will also look forward to hearing of that Fire Chief who falsified those records for his own benefit. I hope that he is fully accountable to Port Chester for his actions. If there is anybody that should take a hit on here, it is him.
 
 In the long run, it will be the citizens of Port Chester who will pay the price. Every day that goes by is one day closer to a tragic event happening that might very well had been prevented had those career firefighters been on the scene with a quick response. We know very well, that now a quick response may NOT always be possible.

This opens an entirely new chapter for the Port Chester Fire Department. 
 
Now it seems that some of the earlier negative comments made may appear to actually be true on that fire chiefs leadership qualities. 
 
Any members of that department that were aware of such behavior or conditions going on and failed to act, in my eyes are guilty as well.
 
This is now an embarrassment to the entire department. It appears their leader has let them all down.  I feel sorry for those that had no idea of any of this kind of activity going on and were only there to help the citizens of their community. 
 
The Port Chester Fire Department now has a stigma attached to its name. There apparently id no way that the fire chief can continue in his position. For any new chief coming in, you have inherited a hornets nest. 
 
With the right leadership things can and will improve. But it will take time. 
 
I will hope that this thought is kept in mind. "Don't blame a whole group of people for the actions of a few". For those of us on the outside looking in, we need to try and remember that.

No one has seen a more chaotic volunteer vs career situation than the two responding members of the Stamford Fire Dept. I am referring to the two above posters calling themselves "AFS1970" and "X152". Personally I have no idea who they are. Except that I have a few long time personnel friends in that department. I assume those that posted are career firefighters.
 
For anyone, to make a statement such as the one reported by Channel 12 News is totally unacceptable. Somebody said it and somebody is to blame for it.
 
Very often facts are withheld until the right time presents itself. We see that every day in a court of law. Apparently the person recording this felt the timing was now right to present it. I have to agree with that as I think this builds a better case for those eight Port Chester firefighters of getting their jobs back. Somebody, clearly is recorded as advising people to damage another firefighters home. Should the entire volunteer system in Port Chester be blamed for this ? Of course not. But I would expect those other members to fully support these firefighters.
 
 What if that statement were made by a CAREER FIREFIGHTER ? Does that change it ? Well, clearly there would be some type of discipline taken against that firefighter by a superior officer or chief. No doubt a price would have to be paid. Maybe a suspension and loss of pay, or termination. It is just not allowed or accepted for a career firefighter - ANYPLACE - to get away with that. Most career firefighters can be held responsible for anything they say or do under the rules of a semi military type organization.
 
  There is clearly another indirect lesson to be learned here by both career AND volunteer firefighters. Regardless of what you think, each and every one of you are held to a much higher standard by the general public. Let the office worker be arrested for a causing a fatal DUI accident and nobody really knows where he works or if he gives his co-workers a bad name. Let that same thing happen where a firefighter is the cause of that fatal DUI accident and the headlines clearly show; "FIREFIGHTER the cause of fatal DUI accident". The entire Fire Dept must carry that negative reputation around with it - Volunteer or City Paid.
 
 People expect you to be of higher character than their neighbor down the street. "I know I do". People will hand their sick child over to a total stranger in a firefighters uniform. They expect you to be of good character.

 
Maybe that career should have never been started in the first place. 
 
As the saying goes; "You can fool some of the people some of the time BUT you can't fool all of the people all of the time". 
 
Those career firefighters need to get their jobs back, and I hope they go after everything they are entitled to get. 
 
Let the citizens understand exactly who is to blame for this.

This opens an entirely new chapter for the Port Chester Fire Department. 
 
Now it seems that some of the earlier negative comments made may appear to actually be true on that fire chiefs leadership qualities. 
 
Any members of that department that were aware of such behavior or conditions going on and failed to act, in my eyes are guilty as well.
 
This is now an embarrassment to the entire department. It appears their leader has let them all down.  I feel sorry for those that had no idea of any of this kind of activity going on and were only there to help the citizens of their community. 
 
The Port Chester Fire Department now has a stigma attached to its name. There apparently id no way that the fire chief can continue in his position. For any new chief coming in, you have inherited a hornets nest. 
 
With the right leadership things can and will improve. But it will take time. 
 
I will hope that this thought is kept in mind. "Don't blame a whole group of people for the actions of a few". For those of us on the outside looking in, we need to try and remember that.

This opens an entirely new chapter for the Port Chester Fire Department. 
 
Now it seems that some of the earlier negative comments made may appear to actually be true on that fire chiefs leadership qualities. 
 
Any members of that department that were aware of such behavior or conditions going on and failed to act, in my eyes are guilty as well.
 
This is now an embarrassment to the entire department. It appears their leader has let them all down.  I feel sorry for those that had no idea of any of this kind of activity going on and were only there to help the citizens of their community. 
 
The Port Chester Fire Department now has a stigma attached to its name. There apparently id no way that the fire chief can continue in his position. For any new chief coming in, you have inherited a hornets nest. 
 
With the right leadership things can and will improve. But it will take time. 
 
I will hope that this thought is kept in mind. "Don't blame a whole group of people for the actions of a few". For those of us on the outside looking in, we need to try and remember that.

 
Maybe that career should have never been started in the first place. 
 
As the saying goes; "You can fool some of the people some of the time BUT you can't fool all of the people all of the time". 
 
Those career firefighters need to get their jobs back, and I hope they go after everything they are entitled to get. 
 
Let the citizens understand exactly who is to blame for this.

 
Maybe that career should have never been started in the first place. 
 
As the saying goes; "You can fool some of the people some of the time BUT you can't fool all of the people all of the time". 
 
Those career firefighters need to get their jobs back, and I hope they go after everything they are entitled to get. 
 
Let the citizens understand exactly who is to blame for this.

Wow, if that isn't an understatement! I know numerous VFD's that run the whole show on far less than that. At $77k/yr I can see how a dept. can go to so many parades without affecting public safety resource, they could buy a parade engine so the real engines could be in quarters!

Unless that Probationary Police Officer made an illegal arrest and there has been other previously, earlier documented violations for this probationary police officer, I think he has every right to get his job back and all back pay and benefits he is entitled to.
 
As for the mayor and it's citizens, if that is the case they should be very proud of a police officer who was hired to protect and serve within their town, regardless who who it is.
 
Sorry Mr Mayor, but the same rules apply to you as we'll as everybody else. You should commend this officer for doing such a good job. Mr Mayor, "you should lead by example as well".

And in many other states too.

I think you misunderstood my comment.  I wasn't speaking about employer initiated discipline, I was referring more to comments from the online peanut gallery.  I've seen numerous comments that call for career firefighters to be fired for an inappropriate action or comment that oftentimes really isn't worthy of termination.
 
As for your comment, typically the employee has the ability to challenge the termination via the grievance process.  If the matter cannot be resolved via discussion/negotiation between the employer and the union on behalf of the employee, then the matter would go to arbitration.  If the employer can't show just cause for the termination, then more than likely the employee would be reinstated by the arbitrator.