antiquefirelt

Thinking it might have been a bit better with a MM than the RM? That front overhang is killer. Of course the MM tailslap is an issue, but I'd bet a MM could make it in one shot. 

It certainly seems like time the building codes began to review the height and area limitations of Type V construction. Most large scale buildings must meet these rules, but are granted allowances ofr open perimeter and sprinklers, thus you can build a much larger/taller structure than may be practical. Given the wood frame construction materials available (engineered and lightweight) the height and area limitation should likely be reduced to account for the lack of structural mass and the the reduction in time to structural failure under fire conditions. Even if the national code sets don't change (or not quickly enough) the state of New Jersey has enough evidence to pass their own restrictions, and the rest of us should take note. 

13 hours ago, x635 said:

I think it's an interesting tactical move. Hopefully their existence isn't just as a "clock stopper".

 

It states there are two Paramedics to each flycar. Are they able to split up when one goes aboard a BLS bus, or do both have to go?

 

It would be  very interesting if FDNY was to assign a Paramedic to each Engine company. I'd also like to see in the future a Community Medicine Paramedic program instituted.

Don't see a medic helping fire staffing, in fact it would likely be a greater burden on the company and result in poorer fireground staffing and more logistical down time. I say this as on a comparatively microscopic level, we run medics on both EMS and fire apparatus every shift and there is very little continuity day to day, making other tasks very difficult to schedule and complete. I realize other places do this, but the level of success is harder to measure, as in most cases EMS is used to bolster staffing for fire companies who may not have a comparable workload without it.

As for Community Paramedicine: until it's paid for, it too is a burden on the system, adding a service that may reduce long term medical costs to the taxpayers as a whole, but the rub is that it costs more upfront to add staff, vehicles and such, with no direct return. Our City wanted to study that model, but again, with no way to defray the upfront costs, the interest waned very quickly. 

1 hour ago, x635 said:

And one would think those would be the only three manufacturers who would be able to comply, since they are the only ones that have an cab meeting FDNY specs already in production.

 

As I recall both Ferrara and KME had to specifically build new cab designs to meet the FDNY spec, they weren't already on their line. So it would be possible for another builder to do the same if they thought it was worth the effort. I doubt the majority of the fire service has the same street and station limitations that require the need for the split tilt cab, so you have to really put a lot of stock in your ability to keep an FDNY contract, and hope some other just use the FDNY spec because it must be the best (which I imagine it is...for them). 

I know many folks in this forum must have some direct knowledge, but early on there was a lot of grumbling about the KME product, but maybe that would be the same of anything? Unlike many fire departments where the apparatus is the crown jewels of the department, I suspect most FDNY personnel see the apparatus as merely tools that allow them to do the job, thus they set the bar high.   

2 minutes ago, LineCapt said:

Tower ladder failure or operator error? Any other angles of this photo?

Maybe it failed before hit the roof line? Sure looks like it was powered down or lost hydraulics with the bucket on the parapet. 

On the topic of residency points or rules, it seems that the taxpayers in large part would like to see their tax dollars stay in he local economy. Over and over the community tries to promote itself, but showing it's a great place to live and work, so by having it's own employees be residents, it promote this sense of community and keeps the money local, sadly it often doesn't allow for the most qualified applicant to get the jobs.

3 minutes ago, Danger said:

 

Nope. In both El Segundo and Monterey Park the local and the Chief supported consolidation. In El Segundo anti-consolidation groups cited minimal savings and loss of local control. In Monterey Park, anti-consolidation people accused the union of supporting the measure so they could "have upward mobility in a larger department" despite $2m in savings.

 

ES: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/el-segundo-votes-to-keep-citys-fire-department.html

MP: http://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/article/ZZ/20130531/NEWS/130539831

Thanks for putting that into context. I guess some people always smell a rat with government, thus even a good idea that saves them money and improves service must somehow be a bad deal. Sadly it looks like it means those FD's will continue to run unsafely understaffed, a factor that the voters didn't seem to grasp.

On 12/30/2016 at 6:04 PM, Danger said:

At least two other cities (El Segundo and Monterey Park) with similar demographics to Hermosa Beach tried this recent years. Both were defeated by taxpayers at referendum even though they came with savings.

One must wonder if the Union was for or against consolidation in these cases? Hard to imagine taxpayers supporting their own FD if the FD thinks the new one would be better. Seems more likely the Union was key in retaining their own FD. Hermosa may be a true "win-win"?

Huh? Why lower the volume when you can just (maybe a law issues) limit the use of the siren to "as needed"? It would seem lowering the volume will result in the siren being ineffective when it's needed (inattentive motorists). I doubt the sirens used in the firetrucks or PD vehicles are any different in output, merely just the use as noted. No doubt this petitioner did not seek any "expert" opinions as to the problem and other solutions. 

"the heat build up raises the pressure"Are they talking about the bottles be "warm" post fire or do they realize the filling process generates heat? I have to wonder how fast their filling their bottles. "Hot filling" speeds the process but always results in shrinkage (never good). 700 psi seems like a significant amount that likely is the direct result of speed filling the cylinders.

22 hours ago, fire patrol nyc said:

Seth.....what went wrong was a lot of people didn't do their jobs.... for what ever the reason...now they play the blame game....(my opinion)

It's easy to blame inspectors and code officials, but far harder to give them the resources and tools to do their jobs every day. Code offices tend to be way under staffed to conduct follow-up inspections, go to court to get warrants to check when owners are non-responsive, or just find how many people are in fact using their buildings in a manner not consistent with their certificate of occupancy. 

We had a similar, albeit smaller scale situation like this, where an old warehouse had been split into multiple occupancies. Due to a lack of fire separation they were not allowed to have a restaurant as the "assembly occupancy " required the greater separation. Just a month ago one of our EMS crews responded their for a young female with an injury in evening, which seemed odd, for a building that had no night time occupancies. Turned out they were holding a Rave. This of course constitutes an assembly use and could not be allowed or permitted. The owner sublet the space and claims knew nothing about it, but low and behold the police reported that this had happened at least 3 time over the summer/fall. The FD, Code office and State Fire Marshal's (who must permit/license public dances) were all totally clueless. Why? No indications, no complaints and no one saw these being advertised on FB. Thankfully the owner immediately shutdown any further uses and now can see, after Oakland just how dangerous things can be when you're an absentee landlord. This building my not have had the same tragic results due to a full sprinkler, but it is a maze of all wood finish spaces with two full floors and multiple areaas with partial floors, a total nightmare to search in the dark, nevermind smoke.

Anyway, as firefighters, police officers and EMS folks, we can report what we see as potentially hazardous conditions to building inspectors as few municipal code departments can inspect every building every 5 years, nevermind every year. 

The only ones who will win are the lawyers. Unless they have a very detailed finding of a failed piece of equipment, I can't imagine the defense will have much difficulty showing the hundreds of other uncontrolled variables that might have caused this fatality. I see this being like the Boston situation looking at the hose manufacturer... Lawyers know they won't get much suing the city, so they go for the deepest private pockets. 

The legal complaint is a bit difficult to read, they list competing manufacturers as all having a hand in the SCBA? Recent news images show PFD using Scott SCBA. The lawsuit seems to go after every part of the firefighters protective gear, but doesn't give details of who made what and what the failure was that they believe resulted in the fatality. maybe just throwing it all against the wall to see what sticks? 

Interesting that a few people noted "throwing a rope over the wire and moving it". Anyone actually done this? I've always thought that the risk of the rope being a conductor would be too great, or the end contact with something else might cause uncontrollable arcing that could be more hazardous than the current condition? The Fire Chief here when I started my career job was a master electrician. He was more aggressive than most and taught us to be when it came to working around live lines/wires, but most of the confidence in those lessons left when he did. 

7 hours ago, LayTheLine said:

Yes, I agree if done in a constructive and nice way. Asking WTF? or is this amateur hour? is not constructive or nice. Using decency and respect should be paramount when talking to or about other firefighters & their actions. To do otherwise makes us look like a bunch of lunkheads. 

I'll admit maybe that was a bit harsh, but I was hoping to evoke a bit of discussion here. Sadly everyone has gotten so PC that we can't have a frank discussion about tactics without worrying about offending people. Gone are the days of right and wrong, left for the kinder gentler FS who is tolerant of excuses and poor performance.  It is hard not to disparage the actions or lack of action when you have 8 minutes of fire growth going unopposed despite a large FD presence. Admittedly we don't know all the factors, but I hope someone knows something about it. I'll happily eat a plate of crow if someone can serve it.

Sorry, maybe I'm missing a whole lot, but WTF!!! No one could figure out how to prevent the fire from getting inside? Maybe hit the eaves and let the water wash down the siding from a safe point away from the power? Hell dry chemical upon arrival? Seems like maybe getting inside in the rooms with windows directly being exposed to the outside fire might have been a good idea? Amateur hour in NJ? 

8 minutes ago, N1Medic said:

I heard a rumor that the State Of CT is now requiring power stretchers for all ambulances, not sure if electric up/down or powerload, or both. Anybody know?

We recently took delivery of two buses and when we were speaking to ambulance dealers last fall they noted these would likely be the last ones that won't be required to have powerload systems. It appears that all the new regulatory entities (mandatory some places, not in others?) now require the load system? As I recall it's KKK, NFPA and maybe one other?

2 hours ago, SilentShadow said:

That sucks. Obviously looks like something jacked up the pressure somehow.

If you look closely he is operating with the bale partially open and suddenly opens it completely accidentally. This is a hard lesson in why we preach the nozzle is open or closed. To properly operate the nozzle in the fully open position the PDP would have to be lowered, basically all but removing the possibility of a  sudden increase in discharge flow and nozzle reaction. Sure we all operate nozzles partially open during mop up and other less hazards scenarios, but this shows what can happen. 

2 hours ago, oldschool said:

Isn't most of the weight of the SCBA supposed to sit on your hips instead? I doubt there is a weight or ergonomic difference between Scott and MSA>

This is part of the rumored issue from what we're hearing. Apparently Scott was not buying the claim that the injuries were SCBA related and told them to wear the waist strap as designed before pointing fingers. 

Rumors abound about this major shift from Scott. There are few if any other brands on this job that I have a deep a loyalty to. I'v e switched helmets, boots, bunkers, hose, nozzle, apparatus and always felt fine, but a switch from Scott to anything else would be a hard pill to swallow. I'm not sure of any piece of equipment we invest so much time in being intimate with and rely on for so much. I can honestly say I've never had an issue that took air away from my mask with Scott, something I cannot say about previous uses with two other major brands. I hope this works out for BFD and isn't due to a foolish backlash.

2 hours ago, PCFD ENG58 said:

What are you talking about 2% money refund from the Insurance company's received each year or tax money from the tax payer ?Two different things

Not really that different, if the money charged to the insurance companies requires that 2% to be raised from the rate payers so that it can be given to the departments, it's a defacto tax. 

3 hours ago, Oaks said:

It's Hartsdale's decision how they spend their 2% money. Not anyone else's.

So who is Hartsdale? Is it the volunteer members (6 is it?) or the FD as a whole which includes taxpayer funded career personnel? Or is it the community leaders, or the taxpayer themselves? 

What is sad is the failure to recognize that FD's or any organization that takes money that is either or tax or portion of another payment should be 100% accounted for and used in an appropriate manner. FD's provide a service to the community, thus they serve the community, not themselves as it appears in so many cases.  

This is the kind of stuff that drives a huge wedge between career and volunteer firefighters. This makes us all look bad, when it's thankfully a handful of the total US Fire Service. No wonder people question why providing fire services is so expensive, they see how much money is spent frivolously by some and think we all do it.

Nice, the mayor thinks those firefighters will apply to be re-hired as part time no benefit personnel, ensuring the same level of service? Seems to be a bit out of touch with reality, to say the least. At least teh Fire Chief is not backing the plan or saying they can offer the same level of protection with fewer personnel. 

25 minutes ago, mfc2257 said:

Not only is the money gone and the SCBA's not paid for, depending on how the grant was administered and the terms of the grant (I didn't read the whole article), the government may want their money back. Wouldnt be the first time.

Speaking as a taxpayer, we should all want the money re-collected. These grant programs use federal dollars and when they go unused they should return to the collecting body to offset other needs. Letting this one city slide helps its taxpayers at our expense. The downside is that the citizens and FD are likely going to suffer due to poor financial management in city administration.

20 hours ago, Bnechis said:

"Absolutely an attempt to stifle patriotism" or this is a labor management thing, where the board is flexing its muscles?

 

a lot of people have assumed the first and most are blind to any other possibility 

 

I was thinking along those lines. Anti-patriotism among more that 2 commissioners? Really? I'd find it unlikely that any board involved in emergency service would have an anti-American slant. There are plenty of reasons this may have come about, most are likley the result of fear of some sort of reprisal: Some citizen complains that responding into their neighborhood waiving the flag is seen as a type of "invasion" while their neighborhood is in America (some people think strange things).