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Disaster_Guy

YFD Union Creates New Website (Yonkers CFR-D Program)

114 posts in this topic

So, if there is a structure fire or the FD is busy in Yonkers on firematic stuff, does YFD send an Engine to cover each empty stations so that FD will be at EMS calls just as quickly?

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And I wasnt calling you anything. Calling someone an %*# hole and accusing someone of sounding like one are two different things.

Yes, totally different. I clearly failed to see the distinction.

I apologize that peoples words hit home, but coming from a field such as this, people should learn to have thick skin.

Everyone should have thick skin? Ironic.

And by the way, you already did interject your opinion. And theres nothing wrong with that!

If by saying I have no affiliation with either YFD or Empress, therefore no opinion means I have an opinion, then I guess your right!

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OK, being a 25 year Yonkers paramedic ( that includes 3 years before the YFD even wanted to start coming with us on our calls), I was all set to spout off on this issue with tons of semi-intelligant comments, anecdotes, personal experiences and such that probably would have pissed of lots of folks I have respect for. But I waited. And while I waited I found this:

EVERYONE on this thread MUST listen to this. It is 20 minutes so some you short attention span types may not have the patients. But every word is riveting. It called the "The cost of a firefighter: How much is a hero worth?" It is a very interesting report. I hope the link works.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/12/18/167265874/episode-424-how-much-is-a-firefighter-worth

I would also like to redirect and add something authored by the organization that manages EMS in Contra Costa County

http://cchealth.org/ems/pdf/lafco-fire-ems-relationship-0808.pdf

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With all due respect, that's the essence of the first response, quick response initiating CPR and Defib. Instead of having fire engines doing first response, they will now have a Paramedic doing first response.

With all due respect, CPR and Defib ARE the essence of first response, and should be done by a CFR and not a medic, so the medic may continue to drop a tube and a line. It is hard enough to deliver a shock within 90 seconds and not have interrupted resperations of more than 20 seconds when trying to hook up BVM/o2 just by fumbling through all the tubing and aed wires by yourself, and now one medic is supposed to do all this, and tube, and get a line. I would rather see 4 people set up a BVM with continious breaths and o2, and shock, and the medic can be a medic, not a CFR.

JFLYNN likes this

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With all due respect, that's the essence of the first response, quick response initiating CPR and Defib. Instead of having fire engines doing first response, they will now have a Paramedic doing first response.

So is the assertion that a single medic is better than a company of 4? I'd be surprised if any union would advocate for their personnel to be allowed to respond alone, seems like a dangerous situation in many cases. Maybe Yonkers doesn't have the drug or crime problems we have? :wacko:

JFLYNN likes this

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I am not affiliated with YFD or Empress nor do I live in Yonkers and I am in no way taking sides but I just want to say if and I mean if there is friction between the unions or between members of the unions than wouldn't it be better that the two entities hash this out among themselves rather than doing it on EMTBRAVO? JMHO.

ups2ooo likes this

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yfd73 and other YFD'ers who posted, thank you for your insight. Although I still maintain some of my views, I do I have a better understanding of the "other side" now. I'm glad we had a chance to discuss this on EMTBravo, or else I would have still had my stubborn, one-sided opinion.

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

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Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

Until you need an endotracheal tube.

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yfd73 and other YFD'ers who posted, thank you for your insight. Although I still maintain some of my views, I do I have a better understanding of the "other side" now. I'm glad we had a chance to discuss this on EMTBravo, or else I would have still had my stubborn, one-sided opinion.

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

One of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site. EVER! Do you really believe that?

Until you need an endotracheal tube.

Or fluids,

Or meds,

or advanced cardiac care,

or advanced intervention techniques,

or an advanced airway.

87D124 likes this

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Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

One of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site. EVER! Do you really believe that?

I meant in terms of manpower, such as on a cardiac arrest. When YFD arrives, one can do the bagging, one can do the compressions, one could defib, etc. It's the basics that save....such as early and proper CPR. How is the Paramedic going to do that him/herself?

Yfd73 likes this

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I meant in terms of manpower, such as on a cardiac arrest. When YFD arrives, one can do the bagging, one can do the compressions, one could defib, etc. It's the basics that save....such as early and proper CPR. How is the Paramedic going to do that him/herself?

I understand what you're saying but there are certain things that firemen with a CFR-D level of training just can't do whereas a paramedic's or even an EMT's skillset is much greater. But if you're just talking manpower then I see your point.

Yfd73 likes this

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Part 3.

Disclaimer- my apologies for spelling and grammatical errors in previous and future posts- there is a lot to cover here and I don't have time or emergy to dot the i's and cross the t's- I hope I am making some sense to most of you nonetheless.

Here we go...I agree with the poster who stated that Empress is "clinically progressive" and who espoused the value of Empress' EMD pre-arrival instructions. However, I should point out that the "Haz-Mat Special Ops support to YFD" provided by Empress is done with equipment purchased with federal grant money (UASI and MMRS), and training conducted by YFD. The nature of this support is generally to provide a secondary technical decon only.

One point that was made by a brother YFD member, above, should be emphasized. Empress has so very many dedicated and professional members. However, the majority of these individuals do not spend the majority of their working lives in EMS, and particularly not with Empress, although some do. Many Empress employees move on to Fire or Police Department careers, elsewhere in emergency medicine, or on to other careers altogether. The Empress work force is nowhere as stable as YFD. This is just reality and I believe is pertinent. I won't give my opinion regarding the effect of a stable vs. a more transient workforce because it is just that, my opinion, and we all know what those are worth. However, these facts should be provided so that all of the stakeholders 9particularly city residents) might be able to deternine relevance.

PART 4

YFD has not only CFR-D's, but a very large number of EMT's, as well as several Paramedics and RN's.

Brendan likes this

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PART 4

YFD has not only CFR-D's, but a very large number of EMT's, as well as several Paramedics and RN's.

I'm done for tonight..when I have time I will post the conclusion to this series of sloppy, but hopefully informative posts, entitled-

THE BOTTOM LINE- Short term and long term consequences of eliminating the YFD First Responder Program, and why, if it ever is eliminated, it will inevitably be reinstituted in 9-24 months.

In the meantime my friends, please...qtip.....

Edited by JFLYNN

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John - I re-read this whole thread, including my own comments, and I want to clarify - I was not bashing the YFD or it's men..although reading my posts it would seem otherwise. Not my intention.

I have always had the greatest respect and ADMIRATION for the YFD, as many know..I have seen some of the ballsiest firefighting, and most compansionate caregiving from your members duiring my tenure at Empress..I would love to one day go back, but as you posted, so many of us move on...But the YFD is nothing but professional. The first responder program has saved countless lives, no doubt, and I hope it does not go away...the residents of Yonkers are blessed to have it. I always enjoyed calls i would do where Roone, or Eddie R., or so many others were on scene, because I LEARNED from them.

I have an in-law who is retired from your job, and I love BS'ing with him about the 80's and 90's in Yonkers, even if I cant understand his hispanic accent when we have a few cold ones and he really gets going..LOL

Thanks for taking the time and energy to post the information you did - I know there are things you would rather be doing, but it shows your pride in your men, and the JOB.

Merry Christmas to you and the entire YFD...stay safe.

No worries Brother, I qtiped. Merry Christmas and saty safe!

Brendan and x129K like this

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When the YFD began the CFR program, I did see a memo posted on YFD letterhead that said they would stop sending folks on EMS runs when 6 or more companies were being used elsewhere. That was 20 years ago and may have changed. Since I think YFD sends 4 engines, two ladders and a rescue, (4+2+1=....7!) that would mean that any time there was a fire call going on that no one had freed up from, EMS ops would stop. I beleive that for some fire calls in SFR's they send less. As a guy on the street, whether FD comes or not is a total mystery. I can do two identical calls back to back, one gets FD the other not.

That's a great point, Bill. And I'm not specifically referring to YFD, many agencies have this type of arrangement, I don't even know for sure that YFD is among them, so I'll speak in generalities. How can you argue that a service is invaluable, out of reach for bean-counters when you yourself have come up with criteria when it is allowed to take a backseat. If BLS-FR is so crucial, then it should be as important as your other tasks and you must find a way to fund and deliver it. If it's so unimportant that it can be suspended routinely during times of high call volume or other conflict, then how can you argue for it so strenuously? That's not even unique to fire. Both law enforcement and EMS can and do often have similar issues.

Edited by INIT915

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One other small detail: Occasionally Yonkers forgets to alert Empess of a call. No too often, like daily, but probably more than weekly. I did to an auto pedestrain fatal when this happened. Empess dispatch advises us when we do get the call so we are aware that it has been delayed. I cannot over-emphasize how much I appreciate dispatchers and how little of their world I understand. My assumption is that with a never ending flood of drama coming in and being doled out, sometimes a call is dropped. In Yonkers it played a big part in a fatality from asthma at an East side school a number of years back. Now with cell-phones the TMC gets these calls adding another human link in the chain between caller and crew. I think we are up to about 50% of all 911 calls coming via cell now?

Maybe they sometimes forget to send a CFR engine as well? I have zero insight into that.

My understanding of the currant friction is this: Mayor wants to drop minimum to 48 FF's. Currant is is more like 60 FF's +/-. IN the Local 628 contract is language saying that if minimum goes below a certain number, (I am going to use 55 becasue I don't know the actual number), then the FD CFR program stops. IS THIS RIGHT? can anyone on here say?

My next question is: IF that is right, which side put it in, and with what intention? Did 628 put it in to protect itself? Did the City put it in to save manpower for fires during a time of possible reductions? And whichever side put it in, what did you negotiate to get it in?

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Thats why I always had a handheld scanner on in the bus Billy!

And you thought it was only to buff fires...

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AND since the NYS legislature has not moved on allowing FD's to bill since George Pataki introduced it 20 years ago, there is no way to off-set this new $10 million annual cost that by the way, will not put out a single fire- just answer EMS calls.

Bill, NYS law only prohibites Fire Districts (as a special taxing district) from billing for service. Municipal Fire Departments (like Yonkers, NYC, Binghamton, Troy, Albany) has always been allowed to. A number of cities in NYS bill for Ambulance service and from 1974 till about 2000 New Rochelle billed for service that was contracted to the FD (it was stopped when it was determined that a larger billing base would bring in more $).

One of the arguments for changing the law is that it is unfair that the citizens in fire districts (towns) must cover all costs while those in municipal depts (City & village). The bill you speak of has been introduced during every session of the legislature over the last 20 years, but Speaker Silver has never allowed it to the floor. Interesting since his district is is lower Manhattan and FDNY bills in his district. It has been rumored for years that he gets a high amount of campaign funds from commercial ambulance companies, could it be that they do not want compatition?

The irony here is that you live in a fire district so every call in your district is taxpayer funded and the insurance companies can not be billed to reduce your taxes.

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Hey Barry; Thank you for your usual wealth of knowledge. I always wondered how FDNY got around that. So a village FD in NYS can bill? Since they are not a fire DISTRICT? My understanding from doing investigatons of EMS billing in my town was that the insurance industry is the big opposer to FD billing. My guess is that in the case of ambulance services VS insurance industry, it is the insurance industry that has the money and lobbyests to push their agenda. Every call done by a NYS Fire district = a free ride for the call for the insurance providoer for that patient.

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Hey Barry; Thank you for your usual wealth of knowledge. I always wondered how FDNY got around that. So a village FD in NYS can bill? Since they are not a fire DISTRICT? My understanding from doing investigatons of EMS billing in my town was that the insurance industry is the big opposer to FD billing. My guess is that in the case of ambulance services VS insurance industry, it is the insurance industry that has the money and lobbyests to push their agenda. Every call done by a NYS Fire district = a free ride for the call for the insurance providoer for that patient.

Thanks,

Yes village FD's can bill since they are municipal. The NYS Association of Fire Districts and a number of assembly members who have said they would back the legislation have told me that it was Silver and it was because of the American Ambulance Association lobby.

If this is the case it means that commercial services have a big advantage over fire districts (as you had mentioned) and the insurance companies end up paying the commercial service, since the fire district cant bill and reduce the taxes.

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I dunno- cuts both ways. If a fire DIST could bill, I think many would turf off their EMS to a subbed out private and be done with it. Though I have been told a fire DIST cannot sub-out, they must do their primary function themselves. Any insight? That is why my FD, while hiring a private, has them do the calls in the DIStricts ambulance under the DISTrict license.

We have drifted offf topic. The point I was making is that if Yonkers FD wanted to do the full monty EMS wise, using Firemen, doing 911 only, it would be a big financial loser. Basicly about $1.75 million/year per ambulance. Yonkers billing demographic numbers are not strong. Also, if they needed mutual aide, if they did not want to call in the volunteer services that surround them, their options are quite limited. Would FDNY EMS send mutual aid into Yonkers if they were asked, anyone know?

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Tension in regards to Empress?

We don't save lives every day...

I've spent the majority of my career in SW yonkers and have seen good and i have seen bad when it comes to Empress. I, like JFlynn believe the 2 entities work well together (give or take a nut in a safari hat).

The "nut in a safari hat" isn't going anywhere :)

ryguy12fd, highwaybuff and 87D124 like this

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Update:

(Sorry JM15 if this is the same info as the article you posted. That link was not working.)

Judge upholds Yonkers firefighters bid to stop mayor's EMS plan

January 2, 2013

YONKERS — The city firefighters union has again thwarted the mayor's plan to immediately cut its responsibilities for responding to medical emergencies.

A state Supreme Court judge in White Plains today upheld a temporary restraining order issued by another justice last Friday barring the city of Yonkers from eliminating its Fire Department's Emergency Medical Services program starting Jan. 1.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130102/NEWS/301020079/Judge-upholds-Yonkers-firefighters-bid-stop-mayor-s-EMS-plan

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