Morningjoe

Look at farming trucks... they're really setting trends on rescue! https://streamable.com/qrjxu

We're getting only 1 view from this fire...

 

1) first Due unit appears to be a ladder co. You can hear the outriggers setting up...

 

2) the first line appears to go through the rear of the building. Most homes like this on long island have a rear slider that is opposite the main stairs. You can see a significant change in smoke to steam in the basement before the front door is even open, so water was definitely on the fire. 

 

3) I hate second guessing or making it seem like my way would be the right way, but being it early morning, looking at the smoke condition coming from the bedrooms above the garages (appears that the doors are closed, and the amount of fire in the living room and dining room and the obvious compromise of the stairs, If I was one of the two guys on the front patio, I probably would have VESed them.

 

4) the "hit it hard from the yard" idea... With the obvious amount of fire, and seeing that the living, dining room, kitchen, and stairwell are involved, that whole 80* through the window might work for a single room off, but for that much involvement you need to get to its source and attack it there. Period. And if my observation from note 2 is correct, then hihfty is not even an option. 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, mfc2257 said:

I think you're a young enthusiast that doesn't understand some of the respectful tones that should be carried in a conversation with a known member and frequent contributor to this forum who happens to be an FDNY Jake (look up the term if it's escaping you). Take a deep breath. Re-read the posts and you'll see the conclusion that everyone else has come to.  

The term Hobbiest comes to mind 

Copy of the article? Need a subscription to view

4 hours ago, FF1 said:

Given that theory, one would think that HFD and their elite HAZMAT team would be dispatched to all incidents across the county....... if you want to use the theory of calling specialized and highly trained members, 

 

why not call Yonkers? Or FDNY for that matter? It's not all thst much further than Hartsdale.

 

 

First, your question could be raised RIGHT NOW about the 2nd alarm in Valhalla.  They skipped over a staffed tower ladder in White Plains and Fairview to call a tower ladder in West Harrison.

 

If you have such an issue that the county team that takes over 40 mins to get out and on location ... And we all know that 2001 responds by himself to check and verify (regardless of what the IC states or requests [EDIT: This JUST happened at the Valhalla fire...]) and then an unknown response of unknown number and unknown trained personnel respond... Wasn't utilized, call the Assistant Chief of the department and ask him himself.

 

Better yet, because you know exactly who he is, why not ask him face to face of why he made that call, rather than anonymously and blindly question every facet of his decision made yesterday. Figure out exactly why he did, then come back and with facts, explain it to us.

36 minutes ago, x635 said:

 

I saw over thirty in a convoy a few weeks ago, southbound on I-87. approaching the TZB They were definitely repainted used NYSDOT Mack Granite single axles. The ones I saw said "New York State" in large reflective letters on the dump body and a small yellow round label on the door. I can only assume they were heading to Long Island?  I'm also trying to find out where they are stationed, would love to get a shot.  (amongst knowing what they are for)

 

 

What's the story behind that?

 Are these the trucks you speak of?

48 minutes ago, flounder said:

Has any body seen the black NY DOT trucks?  I saw four on I-87 a couple weeks ago.  All black except for the yellow circle on the doors that said NYDOT,  and no reflective on back.  They had a state pickup following them.  Very weird.  Any ideas?  My friend plows for the state on a busy mountain upstate he had no idea.

Pretty sure those are the governor's personal plow trucks...

8 minutes ago, bad box said:

Does anyone have a rundown of the departments that responded to this incident?

Including or excluding people who buffed the job to watch

Your district/city/village decided that it was of the utmost importance for life safety to purchase that apparatus, what ever type it is, using taxpayer money. 

 

To remove it from service to show it off places everyone at risk. 

 

To those who say "that's what mutual aid is for," if that's your excuse, why not just rely on it all the time and use them instead of purchasing your own equipment. If you can justify the extra response time a couple times a year, other than mechanical or maintenance reasons, how can you effectively justify your need for your own apparatus all the time? 

12 minutes ago, soccers22 said:

Isn't it a federal law to have fire protection for the community? So if the volunteers were to not volunteer wouldn't they be forced to hire firefighter's ???

What? There's no such federal law.

 

each state sets its fire laws up, and in NY a village is required to provide (either by direct supervision, Croton-onhudson, or contract, Mt. kisco) fire protection. Cities, and villages are required, towns are not allowed to set up fire protection. 

 

Port Chester is a village that directly oversees their fire department (it's a department of the village), so they have absolute rule over budgeting and such and staffing.

100%. Surprise vote by the board. Rye Brook currently without fire protection, sent the PC career firefighter home.

 

Cops at every PC fire house

Hudson valley regional radio system? What is this??!

12 hours ago, Remember585 said:

If only we utilized our Field Comm here in Westchester... it - and the people working in it - have so much to offer...

It's on certain departments box alarms, but we've been told even if we request it, it will be denied. 

 

Its a great show piece for PR events though 

Obviously, intercounty interoperatbility is another high item on the list.

Westchester, putnam, rockland, and possibily orange should get together like MD and VA did and get one system that works across the board. Its 2016. This little empire crap needs to stop

Regardless of what this survey comes out with, Westchester should abandon the UHF Fire ground radio system which is line of sight and unmonitored , and adopt one which allows the dispatchers to monitor all fire ground radio traffic. NIOSH report after NIOSH report lists that Dispatchers being able to monitor fire ground transmissions in the event of a mayday is imperative to firefighter safety. All departments should reject any proposals without this important feature included.

30 minutes ago, GreatPlains588 said:

 

You would think with all of the resources in Weschester, we wouldn't have to rely on NYC for this kind of technology?

 

Yorktown FD, which was called and utilized with their water rescue team, used their side scan sonar to try and locate the tug

 

https://www.facebook.com/yorktownfire/ can't link the story, but it's their 2nd post down

Always good to revisit this article and topic, especially when a VAC drops a call during a major call... Such as an extrication this morning.

4 minutes ago, x635 said:

Let me preface this by saying I am not religious nor was I raised with religion, but I believe in God and religion has influenced parts of my life. With this said, on all of the dollar bills that have passed through my hand, every one says "In God We Trust". Every time we say the Pledge Of Allegiance, we pledge to God.  The phrase is extremely engraved and interwoven into our society already, more then people actually realize. I don't have any opinion on this matter right now, or too tired to post it, but just figured I'd point it out.

Which was placed into the Pledge during the Communism scare, and replaced "E Pluribus Unum" as the Country's motto during the Communism scare as well. Prior that, the original pledge of allegiance never mentioned religion or God.

What if certain firefighters don't place their trust in god. Maybe since the department and community is so heavily involved in religion, that they're terrified to speak their mind for fear of being shunned or mocked. Or what if they place their faith in Allah? This isn't about political correctness, but about what your department is now representing. Technically it's a government entity and it should not be endorsing ANY religion or lack there of. Could you imagine the uproar if the department placed "There is no God," or "Allah Akbar" on the side of their apparatus because someone donated their time and money to put it on?

 

I'm all for individual PEOPLE believing whatever they want to believe. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhist, Amish, Scientology, Atheism, Pastafarianisim Flying Spaghetti Monster, but leave it out of the organization of the Fire Department. Don't ram it down my throat, or try and convert me, and I won't ram my beliefs down yours and try and convert you. And before people think I'm bashing religion, or accuse me of being someone who think's religion is evil, if what you believe makes you happy, doesn't harm or hamper anyone else's happiness or way of life, I'm all for it.

What are the user names, email?

Each department is set up with a unique ID and password

Shut them down

Now there's a reasonable response to an entire organization because of the acts of one man.

Until the New York State "Home Rule" is totally abolished (and we all know that the UNIONS will 'Never' allow this to happen), the concept of either a Regional or Consolidated Fire Service in the County of Westcehster will NOT happen and this MADNESS of a CRIPPLED Mutual Aid System (specifically tied to the City of Mount Vernon) will continue to happen

Don't you mean FASNY, which lobbies against same standards of training for professional career staffing, and volunteer members? If I was a betting man, which I've been known to be, I'd place my money on the non-uniformed training standards of volunteers, vs known and required training of career firefighters as the reason for not being called into Mt. Vernon and a majority of other career/combo departments.

Why would I roll the dice with the qualifications of those coming in, vs knowing when I call for an engine, I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for in terms of manning and qualifications?

A lot of people chimed in and put in their two cents. You know who the only true losers will be? The members that serve the district and public. The drama and "payback" that I am sure is already in the works and the toll it will take on members with dissenting opinions will be far reaching and those who have targets on their backs, who already have lost friendships, who have already suffered and who still struggle to find a reason to serve and do the right thing will lose again.

The fact is the Somers Fire District is in terrible shape. It is a sinking ship with its crew members busy fighting each other and looking out for their own interests and egos as boat goes down. If it wasnt for the fact that REAL people will die and property will be lost this would be a great TV show. Its a bad movie where real people suffer.

What amazes me is at this point, with the way they're burning the candle at both ends of extremely low, inexperienced manpower, and low member turnout on calls, that the state hasn't stepped in and said enough is enough before a disaster happens. The District has already basically come out and stated, indirectly, that they don't think the experience in the ranks in good enough to run the department successfully by adding a line item in the budget for a career chief.

Sometimes, even in this scenario, putting water on the fire may be the best initial action. In our FD, we heavily refer to the 5 Basic Concepts laid out in Chapter 1 of the Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics:

1. When proper manpower isn't available to do both rescue and extinguishment at the same time, rescue must be given priority.

2. When you don't have sufficient manpower to perform all the need tasks, perform those first that protect the greatest number of lives.

3. Remove those in greatest danger first.

4. When you have the staffing to do both rescue and fire attack at the same time, they must be coordinated.

5. Where there is no threat to occupants, firefighters lives should not be unduly endangered.

Again, understanding the conditions you face, the actual time to effect the rescue and a the likely challenges facing a "rescue" only approach may indicate that controlling the fire is the most appropriate first action. How imminent is the threat to the know rescue? Will you be able to make it? Will your actions make conditions worse such that an unsuccessful attempt will seal the victims fate? There is no one answer, except hoping the person making the decision at that moment is at the top of their game.

This is exactly what I was trying to convey, but just laid a very simple non-descriptive scenario out there, and I should have been more specific.

The main issue here is that everyone is comparing FDNY's tactics, to their own and others. If your department can place 4 fully staffed engines, 3 full staffed ladders, a fully staffed rescue, 2 battalion chiefs on location, all trained to FDNY's minimum training standards, then by all means, compare away. FDNY's guys arrive on scene and each member basically has 1 function to perform... and that's it. 99.99% of other departments, when you arrive, are going to be expected to multitask and call audibles on the fly.

However, most of us are showing up with less then the NFPA's required 16 personnel for a single family residential home (2,000 sqft) within the first 8 minutes. That doesn't even account for larger McMansions or even high rise or OMDs. Each department must look at their manpower on any given moment, and make prudent tactical decisions based off of the situation that has been presented at that very moment.

Showing up with 2 guys and no officer on the first due engine, with no confirmed reports or identifying signs of people inside? Stretch your handline, IF NEEDED, give it a quick shot before you mask up, make entry and perform an aggressive interior attack, while your backup man and or second due companies search off the line.

Same staffing, but with confirmed reports of people trapped with a known location? Life above all else. Mask up, and either perform a normal search, or VES the area where the victim is expected to be.

Basement fire? Whats the harm of popping the bilco door, or venting a small basement window and giving it a quick shot, and allow the gasses to vent and cool, and maybe flash BEFORE you make entry and flash on you and your crew.

To sit here and say that every situation should require transitional (which, btw, is just a fancy name for a task that has been employed since the dawn of firefighting with a new fancy buzz name now) or strictly aggressive interior, or defensive attack, is ludicrous. Proper training, and knowledge of situational awareness and the ability to properly apply each individual tactic and strategy appropriately is what we should be discussing.

I highly recommend people read "Suburban Fire Tactics," by Jim Silvernail. He addresses issues that minimally staffed departments around the country face everyday, and goes over tactics and strategies to bring back and apply to your departments as necessary. Here is a fire engineering article he wrote that discusses some of the aforementioned points, and a link to purchase his book:

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-3/features/suburban-fire-tactics-prioritizing-functions-and-developing-preferred-operating-methods.html

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suburban_Fire_Tactics.html?id=QYDAxE_8e_QC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false